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 Post subject: Re: Post your ladders!
Post #41 Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:49 am 
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move 79 and 91 gave me a ladder each.

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Post #42 Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:16 am 
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here's my latest one, a joseki ladder :



It starts from move 32. It wasn't played, but it can be fun for your reading exercices, since the ladder would only appear a few moves later. I added the variation in case you don't know it.


Attachments:
ladder.sgf [4.84 KiB]
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Post #43 Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:53 am 
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@lorill: That's a fun ladder. I think it's even better as a problem if we move L17 to K16, W pushes, and then ask whether B can hane or must protect the cut.

@lesenv: Thanks. I'm actually specifically looking for ladders that are a little bit tricky to read out because there are all sorts of extra black and white stones on or near the path of the ladder.

@araban: Good to know.

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Post #44 Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:56 am 
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lorill, in your variation, isn't the ladder still good for black? I think white has to push in the top-right once more to achieve a ladder-breaker.

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Post #45 Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:33 am 
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Dusk Eagle wrote:
lorill, in your variation, isn't the ladder still good for black? I think white has to push in the top-right once more to achieve a ladder-breaker.

That's how I read it too, but I'm not just interested in ladders that work. It's important to read out ladders that don't work, too!

Even if W pushes once move, the ladder is broken again after B hanes. But if you move L17, then B has to choose between the hane and protecting the cut. (Although now that I think about it, maybe the hane is a bit too aggressive for B, anyway.)

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Post #46 Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:12 am 
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Dusk Eagle wrote:
lorill, in your variation, isn't the ladder still good for black? I think white has to push in the top-right once more to achieve a ladder-breaker.


Yes, it's still good for black for now, but still a nice exercice I guess.

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Post #47 Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:28 pm 
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Here is the most difficult problem I have seen involving a ladder. The solution is over 20 moves deep and makes a good reading exercise even when you know the answer.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B B to play. Both ladders work for W.
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O X . . . . .
$$ | . . X X O O . . . .
$$ | . . O O X X a . . . .
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . b . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Start:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ W still threatens two ladders.
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O X . . . . . .
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . .
$$ | . . O O X X 2 . . . .
$$ | . . O X O 3 5 a . . .
$$ | . . . X O 4 . . . . .
$$ | . . . b 1 6 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Finish:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ B breaks both ladders!
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O X . . . . . .
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . .
$$ | . . O O X X O . . . .
$$ | . . O X O X X . . . .
$$ | . . . X O O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . 1 . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ W captures a few stones, but ...
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O X . . . . . .
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . .
$$ | . . O O X X O . . . .
$$ | . . O X O X X 4 . . .
$$ | . . . X O O 5 7 9 . .
$$ | . . . 3 X O 6 8 . . .
$$ | . . 2 . 0 . 1 . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ B gets a fantastic result
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O X 7 . . . . .
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . .
$$ | . . O O X X O . . . .
$$ | . . O X O X X O . . .
$$ | . . 4 X O O X X X . .
$$ | . . 6 X X O O O 5 . .
$$ | . . O 2 O 1 X . 3 . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Post your ladders!
Post #48 Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:10 pm 
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Ah, that's a good one. It reminds me of this: http://senseis.xmp.net/?TheFirstRecorde ... derBreaker

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Post #49 Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:28 am 
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Here is a set of ladder problems that usagi presented a while ago on KGS. Apparently he made several sets at various levels. An excerpt of the kibbitz:


usagi [1d]: this is level 5
usagi [1d]: my own designs hehe
...
adoreme [-]: ddk level?
usagi [1d]: This one is sdk level
adoreme [-]: orly?
pentatonic [8k]: i already got one wrong earlier :)
adoreme [-]: penta did you read kageyama?
pentatonic [8k]: what's kageyama?
goatsunday [6k]: ^^
..
adoreme [-]: kageyama's fundamentals of go
goatsunday [6k]: he says that you should practice reading ladders until reading them is easy
pentatonic [8k]: ah okay
usagi [1d]: He just passed away a year or two ago.
adoreme [-]: yes very sad
usagi [1d]: Yes that is why I made these problems, in his honor
...
adoreme [-]: for anyone who read kageyama those problems should be ddk level :)
usagi [1d]: Not #4

usagi [1d]: #4 is one of those problems where you have to know the tesuji




Attachments:
usagi's ladder probs nr. 5.sgf [334 Bytes]
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Post #50 Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:20 pm 
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this thread reminded me an ultimate ladder game i saw few weeks ago at a go camp. unfortunately i don't remember names of the players (i think they were Korean, game few years old) and i was able to obtain only short part of sgf that is not even guaranteed to be correct (and failed to find the game in the GoGoD). if anyone recognizes the game, please tell me, it would be great to have the complete sgf



short commentary:
white just finished joseki in the lower left corner, but he needs a ladder to play this way. so he goes to the upper right corner to obtain a ladder breaker but instead sets another ladder, in the opposite direction. now both players take turns in playing dual ladder-breakers / -repairers and in the end black gets both ladders and white gets thickness in the center. white eventually wins the game


Attachments:
ultimate-ladder1.sgf [501 Bytes]
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Post #51 Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:17 am 
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another small one :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . O . X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , O O . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . X . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X . X . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . X . . O . O . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X O X O . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . X . O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . X O O X . X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O O X X . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


can black play this cut ?

and now ?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . O . X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , O O . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . X . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X . X . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O 2 . X . . O . O . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X O X O . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . X . O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . X O O X . X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O O X X . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Post your ladders!
Post #52 Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:32 am 
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mitsun wrote:
Here is the most difficult problem I have seen involving a ladder. The solution is over 20 moves deep and makes a good reading exercise even when you know the answer.


Yes, that's one of my favourites too. In case someone wants to see the whole game, it's Cho Chikun - Kobayashi Satoru, 20th Kisei Final Game 2 (1996). Go World 76 has commentary. The game result is slightly different from the one given in mitsun's answer.

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Post #53 Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:07 pm 
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This file is what I have so far. I haven't added Laman's game because I'm not quite sure how to present it as a problem, and I somehow missed Lorrill's latest.

I've been doing at least one every day it and makes reading ladders in games a lot easier. I can now read ladders where the sequence that creates the ladder isn't on the board yet, which wasn't possible two weeks ago.


Attachments:
Ladders and Nets.sgf [5.82 KiB]
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Post #54 Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:55 pm 
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mitsun wrote:
Here is the most difficult problem I have seen involving a ladder. The solution is over 20 moves deep and makes a good reading exercise even when you know the answer.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B B to play. Both ladders work for W.
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O X . . . . .
$$ | . . X X O O . . . .
$$ | . . O O X X a . . . .
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . b . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
For some reason, I found myself trying to figure out the most feasible way this could come up in a game...:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 4 1 . . . . .
$$ | . . 7 5 6 0 . . . .
$$ | . . 8 2 9 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B B to play. Both ladders work for W.
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 5 O X . . . . .
$$ | . . X X O O . . . .
$$ | . . O O X 1 . . . . .
$$ | . . 4 3 2 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X 6 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


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Post #55 Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:02 pm 
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I think it's this, I remember seeing this somewhere.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 9 . . . . .
$$ | . . 7 1 8 0 . . . .
$$ | . . 6 4 5 . . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 3 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B B to play. Both ladders work for W.
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 2 X . . . . .
$$ | . . X X O O . . . .
$$ | . . O O X 1 . . . . .
$$ | . . O X 4 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 5 6 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

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Post #56 Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:59 pm 
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Crude game I played on Oro, the ladder that saved me:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X X . X X . X O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . O O O X O O . X , O . . |
$$ | . . X . O X O . X X X X . O X . X O . |
$$ | . . . X X O O O O O X . O . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X O X X O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . O X X X O X O X . O . . . |
$$ | . X O X X . . . X O O O O X O . O . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . W , . . . X X O O . . |
$$ | . O O O X O . . . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X O . . . . . . X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X X . . . . X X X . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X X X X X . X O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O O X X O X O X X . X |
$$ | . . . . O X X O X X X O . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X O X O O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Post your ladders!
Post #57 Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:15 am 
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my latest one (move 146, or 143 if you want to read a little bit ahead) :

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Post #58 Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:43 am 
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There's a nifty ladder problem I posted in my Study Journal here: http://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=65592#p65592

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Post #59 Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:19 am 
Oza
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Here's the latest version, with new ladder problems from lorill, araban, marcus, and ez4u. There are now 26 problems.

If you see an interesting ladder somewhere else in the forum feel free to link to it. I'll probably see it anyway, but I might forget to add it the next time I update the SGF.

I'm also on the lookout for more problems where capturing in a ladder is a failure, because there is a net available. I only have two problems like that.

edit: added the sgf inside the viewer



Attachments:
Ladders and Nets.sgf [8.21 KiB]
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Post #60 Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:57 pm 
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One I saw on KGS (at the end)


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