Ichiriki Ryo

gazzawhite · Post by **gazzawhite** » Sat Mar 19, 2022 7:10 pm

Speaking of NHK Cup, does anyone know why the Asian TV Cup hasn't been held since 2019? Is it because they don't want to hold it online? I'd be keen to see Ichiriki take on Shin Jinseo at fast time controls.

pajaro · Post by **pajaro** » Mon Apr 04, 2022 11:21 am

Ichiriki will challenge Iyama in the Honinbo for the first time.

Ichiriki beat Yo Seiki today in the play-off, after Yo lost to Shibano in the last game. Too bad, I wanted Yo to be the challenger.

If Ichiriki wins the title, then the papers can talk about a new era. The answer, before summer.

CDavis7M · Post by **CDavis7M** » Mon Apr 04, 2022 12:31 pm

Yeah, I was rooting for Yo Seiki also but Ichiriki showed his strength. I reviewed the broadcast quickly but it seems like Ichiriki kept the initiative since the beginning.

Now he's off to get married to Iyama at the Kinkeikaku wedding shrine 金渓閣. The venue looks very nice. https://kinkeikaku.official-wedding.jp/

kvasir · Post by **kvasir** » Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:47 pm

pajaro wrote:Today, Ichiriki Ryo beat Iyama Yuta in the 7th game of the Kisei, and won the match 4-3, after being 3-1 and losing 2 deciding games. I think you only call it "kadoban" from the point of view of the player behind, but well.

Ichiriki is the new Kisei, after 9 years of Iyama Kisei, and a failed attempt (0-4) some years ago and other defeats in other titles.

How will this change the Japanese go scene? We'll see.

Now he has lost 5 games in a row against Iyama. That despite having some very favorable positions. It is no record, though. If gorating.com is a good source (could be for the top players) then he lost 13 games in a row to Iyama between December 2016 and February 2018. Not sure which is more surprising, that their clashes have been so lopsided at times or how many games they have been playing each other.

Somehow Ichiriki is almost always the challenger despite last year's challenger usually being thrown in with the next 20 or so players every year to fight for the right to challenge again.

pajaro · Post by **pajaro** » Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:54 am

For a long time, nobody has had a good record against Iyama. In Japan, of course.

Ichiriki from 2016 and the current Ichiriki are not the same player. Who is the same person, 6 years later? Iyama was already a multiple title holder. It is only natural that the gap closes a bit. But not enough.

After winning the Kisei, 5 loses in a row is very hard. I can't judge his go strength. I can't say if he is playing worse, I can't point at his mistakes... But I guess that his head has a lot to do. I have said this before, in mental strength Iyama is waaay above his rivals, IMHO. When I see them playing, there is something in Ichiriki's body language... I always think that he's having a very hard time.

CDavis7M · Post by **CDavis7M** » Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:54 pm

kvasir wrote:Somehow Ichiriki is almost always the challenger despite last year's challenger usually being thrown in with the next 20 or so players every year to fight for the right to challenge again.

I feel like it's the Iyama and Ichiriki show. A week or two ago I went back to see how much they have been playing and I realized it was not quite as much as I thought it was. It's definitely true that they've been playing together a lot recently but Iyama had plenty of different challengers in the last couple years. Shibano challenged the Honinbo the previous 2 times and the Meijin the previous time. And Kono Rin challenged the Kisei before Ichiriki took it.

But yeah, a bunch of the recent title matches have been Iyama vs Ichiriki (including all of the 2 day matches, so double the video streams):
-current Gosei title
-Honinbo
-Kisei
-Meijin (2021)
-Gosei (2021)

Also:
-Oza tournament final-round (streamed)

I feel like they have had other non-title match games on stream but I can't remember.

kvasir · Post by **kvasir** » Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:29 am

They are 8 - 4 so far this year but Ichiriki lost the last 5 games. The thing is that Ichiriki is 27 - 13 so far this year in his official games and excluding Iyama he is at 23 - 5. This is a very solid performance. On the other hand Iyama is at 13 - 9 and only 5 - 5 when excluding Ichiriki. It is a fantastic performance by Ichiriki this year, winning the Kisei and NHK, but with 5 loses in a row in the never ending matchup I am wondering if there is a phycological problem for him going into these games with Iyama.

It could also be that he is overcompensating by trying to avoid wild upsets when he is ahead, something that has happened often against Iyama. In one of the lost games there was a ko that was resolved by Ichiriki in a way that just can't be right. In another game he seemed to try to clinch the win, after a ko was resolved, by playing an empty triangle that peeped at a cutting point but the computer is adamant that he was winning only if he played a normal move and even winning by huge 8 points! It can be hard to impossible to tell for sure who is ahead after large exchanges, it is plausible for even top players to make mistakes if they try to clinch on a perceived lead a bit too early but this is overthinking, instead consider the example of Fujisawa Hideyuki who would rage at his students if he saw them play moves with the sole aim of winning, tell them what they were doing was not Go and order them to start over. Is Ichiriki guilty of trying to win?

CDavis7M · Post by **CDavis7M** » Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:00 pm

Well, you could say the same thing about Iyama in at least one, maybe two, of the recent Kisei matches. I'd have to go back and check.

I think almost all of these reading issues happen when the clock is out or almost out. For sure the second recorder has already shown up to see the mistake. Would be such a novelty to see Iyama and Ichiriki play a longer game. It could be like the Castle games -- don't leave the board until you're done. But they have no time for that between all their other matches.

CDavis7M · Post by **CDavis7M** » Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:38 pm

Thinking about Ichiriki I went back and found this tweet from TsuruRin (Tsuruyama Atsushi and Rin Kanketsu. Looks like Cho U challenging Rin and Ichiriki during a break at the climbing gym. https://twitter.com/TsuruLinChannel/sta ... 29/photo/1

: Bouldering Study Group.png (430.27 KiB) Viewed 61480 times

kvasir · Post by **kvasir** » Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:11 pm

Consider this game, Ichiriki is black and at kadoban in the Honinbo. Black didn't have to play anything locally and when he captures stones with

and

he is protecting against something white can't exploit without first winning the ko. It is an extremely thick way to play but also slow because white will need to capture in the ko to even play

.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O O . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . X X O X X O X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . O O . X X O O X O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O X X O . . X 4 O 1 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . . X O X | $$ | . . . . . . . X . X X X O O O O O X 5 | $$ | . . . . . 8 . . X O O O X X X O X X X | $$ | . . . . 6 3 X X O O . O X 7 X X X O O | $$ | . . . O . X O O . , X X O X X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . O O X O O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Alternatively black could have played like this computer aided variation (or white can play

at

or

to similar effect if slightly different). This might look like a big reading problem but I don't think it is, it is about recognizing that especially

in the first diagram is protecting a weakness that white can't strike at. There is no way this is the move, there is no need for this move and white gets to start the ko. If black was winning it could have the feeling that he is clinching the lead and eliminating the bad aji, but that is why I brought up Fujisawa who would tell his students, if they backed down from a challenge, that what they were doing was not Go.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O O . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O O 3 . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . X X O X X O X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . O O . X X O O X O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O X X O . . X 5 O O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . . X O X | $$ | . . . . . . . X . X X X O O O O O X 4 | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O O O X X X O X X X | $$ | . . . 7 1 . X X O O . O X 6 X X X O O | $$ | . . . O . X O O . , X X O X X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . O O X O O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I wonder if he might have overcompensated in the search for the right balance to beat Iyama. It is also exciting to see if he can break the losing streak.

Ferran · Post by **Ferran** » Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:17 pm

CDavis7M wrote:Thinking about Ichiriki I went back and found this tweet from TsuruRin (Tsuruyama Atsushi and Rin Kanketsu. Looks like Cho U challenging Rin and Ichiriki during a break at the climbing gym.

They've resurrected the kiseisha?

Take care.

CDavis7M · Post by **CDavis7M** » Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:24 pm

Ferran wrote:They've resurrected the kiseisha?

Well, I was just reading about the kiseisha name (棋正社) because of the Ki-in's centennial. I'll take this opportunity to practice my Japanese and share how I found the tweet. I recognize 正 "sei" in Kiseisha from the "seikai" 正解 label for the "correct interpretation" (solution) in tsumego books. So did the Kiseisha think they were more correct? Probably?

Anyway, the Kiseisha was a "sha" (棋社 - Chess/Go association) while the Nihon Ki-in is an "in" (棋院　-chess/Go institution/school). And then these guys are merely a 研究会 kenkyūkai. But how I found the tweet is that I remembered this was a "rock climbing study group." Actually, a "bouldering" study group. Bouldering is just rock climbing short walls without a rope or harness and can be done solo.

I had to google to remember the word but it's just "borudaringu" study group -- not a separate "association." I've seen some other pictures of Tsuruyama and Rin climbing, and Ichiriki climbing with another group of younger players.

CDavis7M · Post by **CDavis7M** » Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:01 pm

kvasir wrote:Alternatively black could have played like this computer aided variation (or white can play at or to similar effect if slightly different). This might look like a big reading problem but I don't think it is, it is about recognizing that especially in the first diagram is protecting a weakness that white can't strike at. There is no way this is the move, there is no need for this move and white gets to start the ko.

Now that you mentioned this ko-issue I'm pretty sure I remember the Japanese fans in the Nihon Kiin live-chat saying something similar. Or something about the AI assessment.

I checked the live stream again and for what it's worth, the commentator Obuchi Kotaro 5-dan gave a variation playing

. His father, Mr. Obuchi 9-dan showed up. So I learn of another Go-family. https://youtu.be/mbpz0p25ALI?t=8402

: Obuchi.PNG (376.12 KiB) Viewed 61417 times

Honinbo Chikun shows up and gave another variation. He's with Omori Ran who seems to show up all the time. I think Cho actually picked up on the issue you mentioned. My Japanese is bad and this video is especially terrible with background noise and the masks, but he points to where

was played and I think he says "chisai this, chisai that". Chisai is "small". https://youtu.be/mbpz0p25ALI?t=10131

: Chisai.PNG (360.5 KiB) Viewed 61417 times

So maybe you have a good point. Ichiriki made a "5-dan mistake." Cho Chikun saw that the move was small and Ichiriki should have should have realized that he needed to spend more time on his assessment. We can let Mr. Obuchi 9-dan off easy as he just showed up).

...or maybe it was really tough, Cho had hindsight of the AI assessment changing, and we should give Ichiriki a break.

kvasir · Post by **kvasir** » Tue Jul 26, 2022 5:07 pm

Ichiriki lost the second game Gosei game in a fight that was very complicated. I think the engine evaluation was that it was in his favor up until it wasn't anymore

The third game is starting right now, I should check but Ichiriki has lost 6 games in a row against Iyama if there weren't any other games in past couple of weeks. It is a giant phycological showdown and is relayed on Pandanet and there is livestream on the Nihon Kiin youtoube channel.

CDavis7M · Post by **CDavis7M** » Tue Jul 26, 2022 7:02 pm

kvasir wrote:Ichiriki lost the second game Gosei game in a fight that was very complicated. I think the engine evaluation was that it was in his favor up until it wasn't anymore The third game is starting right now, I should check but Ichiriki has lost 6 games in a row against Iyama if there weren't any other games in past couple of weeks. It is a giant phycological showdown and is relayed on Pandanet and there is livestream on the Nihon Kiin youtoube channel.

Did you see that picture of 20 year old Iyama?
Ichiriki needed to come in with anime punk hair if he wants to keep taking titles. Turn the tables.

-----
I missed most of the commentary but game 3 reminds me of that proverb about only having 1 week group.

The Gosei is only a 5 game match. I'm hoping to get more steamed games from it.

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