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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: magicwand versus drmwc
Post #141 Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 4:53 pm 
Tengen
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Uberdude wrote:
@MW:
A while back you ignored black's cap at j13 and defended the top left 3-3 point as you thought he should have invaded there instead. You now seem to recognise you are in trouble, so do you still think that previous judgement was correct and you made a mistake afterwards, or given how this fighting has gone would you revise that previous judgement?

Magicwand wrote:
i think he should have initiated 3-3 invasion with his last move.
i guess black having funny opening in the beginning must be giving him uneasy feeling.
luckly i feel that i am ahead in points and not bad in thickness.
i think below diag is better for black than what he played.
his last move seems out of place exposing weakness.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 B has captured 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X X O O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

my opinion about 3-3 invasion has not changed.
i will have to study later sequences to find what went wrong but i am busy writing my final paper.

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The greater the unknown"
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: magicwand versus drmwc
Post #142 Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 6:01 pm 
Judan
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Magicwand wrote:
...
i will have to study later sequences to find what went wrong ...



IMHO, MW went wrong with F15 and F16. It was too close to his own strength, and accomplished virtually nothing for white. But it forced black to become strong on the upper side. This strength on the upper side is one of the things that makes MW's position so difficult now.

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Offline drmwc
 Post subject: Re: magicwand versus drmwc
Post #143 Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 3:07 pm 
Lives in gote
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm185 B has captured 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . O X . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X . O . O O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , X X O O 1 O . X O O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X O X X . X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . X . . O . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X X . X . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . O . O . O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]





It's complex.

I can reject MW's sequence

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . O X . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O 6 . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X 4 O 9 O O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , X X O O 5 O 8 X O O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O 7 O X X . X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X 2 3 X . . . . X X 0 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X 1 X X . X a X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . O . O . O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


4 above isn't totally daft. I could fight the ko after W connects at 5, or I could cu off a chunk of group as shown. w capture 3 stones, But my attack on the remaining group isn't too fierce, although my centre stones are reasonably strong. (There's some aji and W can aim at a ko after a, for example, but it's not an immediate concern.) this line may be playable for B.


Or I can accept MW's line.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . O X . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X 4 O . O O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , X X O O 2 O 5 X O O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X O X X 3 X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . X . . 1 . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X X . X a X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . O b O . O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . . O . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Caputring at 2 is an obvious thing to do. Following this, Mw has a couple of choices. He can save a small chunk of centre, and connect, as shown.

I then have different choice. a looksuseful, as it connect solidly, separates W and aims at a later attack, and possibly cut at b. But it's very slow and may be a dame. So I may play at 6 to expand my corner and avoid a dame connection.

W will invcade the top right corner soon after this.W has very little territory in this line. A count may be:

W: 5 point lower left (the whole group may become weak so he can't get much here now.)

10-15 points RHS.
20 upper left:
Total: 40 plus komi.

B's is a lot more undefined.
Definite territory is :
12 point in center.
8 point lower left.
Upper side: at least 20 points. Additionally, B has what I can nab in the remaining corners.
So this looks good for B.

So W may try to avoid this, for example by:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . O X . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X 4 O . O O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , X X O O 2 O a X O O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X O X X 3 X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . X . . 1 . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X X . X 5 X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . O b O . O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . . O 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


W may choose not to save the small chunk of centre, and go for B's side stones instead. The follow up at a is big yose, but not urgent for either player. If I play this way, my initial thought is to play at 6 above and I should get a big corner. I will give up the side stones. This also seems quite playable to me.

So W may try this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . O X . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X 4 O . O O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , X X O O 2 O . X O O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X O X X 6 X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . X . . 1 7 X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X X . X 3 X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . O b O . O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . . O . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . O , X . 8 . . , a . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In this line, W give up all the senter to get the vital point at 5. There is a question as to whether 6 genuinely is my sente or not at this time - it may be too early. I then play at 8 or a, and again seem to have a good position.

I can also consider answering the ko thereat directly e.g.:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . O X . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O a . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X 4 O . O O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , X X O O 5 O . X O O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X O X X . X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X 3 X . . 1 . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X X . X 2 X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . O b O . O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I can now cut at a, almost. reverting to the very first line showed. However, it's clearly better than that line since W's ko threat haas lost points. Or I can take the ko as in the next diagram:



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc continuation
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . O X . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 2 O . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . 3 X X O . O O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , X X O O O O . X O O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O 1 O X X . X O b O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X 4 X . . O . X X c . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X X . X X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . O . O . O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . . O a . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


W 2 may be a ko threat (it may not be. W retakes the ko. I now need a threat. a,b,c all look possible, and the position is probably quite good for B. But it's not clear cut. So I prefer the middle chunk of variations for me.
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Offline drmwc
 Post subject: Re: magicwand versus drmwc
Post #144 Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 3:07 pm 
Lives in gote
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Posts: 452
Liked others: 74
Was liked: 100
Rank: 4 Dan European
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm185 B has captured 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . O X . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X . O . O O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , X X O O 1 O . X O O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X O X X . X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . X . . O . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X X . X . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . O . O . O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]





It's complex.

I can reject MW's sequence

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . O X . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O 6 . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X 4 O 9 O O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , X X O O 5 O 8 X O O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O 7 O X X . X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X 2 3 X . . . . X X 0 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X 1 X X . X a X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . O . O . O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


4 above isn't totally daft. I could fight the ko after W connects at 5, or I could cut off a chunk of group as shown. W captures 3 stones, But my attack on the remaining group isn't too fierce, although my centre stones are reasonably strong. (There's some aji and W can aim at a ko after a, for example, but it's not an immediate concern.) this line may be playable for B.


Or I can accept MW's line.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . O X . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X 4 O . O O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , X X O O 2 O 5 X O O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X O X X 3 X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . X . . 1 . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X X . X a X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . O b O . O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . . O . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Caputring at 2 is an obvious thing to do. Following this, Mw has a couple of choices. He can save a small chunk of centre, and connect, as shown.

I then have different choice. a looksuseful, as it connect solidly, separates W and aims at a later attack, and possibly cut at b. But it's very slow and may be a dame. So I may play at 6 to expand my corner and avoid a dame connection.

W will invcade the top right corner soon after this.W has very little territory in this line. A count may be:

W: 5 point lower left (the whole group may become weak so he can't get much here now.)

10-15 points RHS.
20 upper left:
Total: 40 plus komi.

B's is a lot more undefined.
Definite territory is :
12 point in center.
8 point lower left.
Upper side: at least 20 points. Additionally, B has what I can nab in the remaining corners.
So this looks good for B.

So W may try to avoid this, for example by:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . O X . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X 4 O . O O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , X X O O 2 O a X O O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X O X X 3 X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . X . . 1 . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X X . X 5 X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . O b O . O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . . O 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


W may choose not to save the small chunk of centre, and go for B's side stones instead. The follow up at a is big yose, but not urgent for either player. If I play this way, my initial thought is to play at 6 above and I should get a big corner. I will give up the side stones. This also seems quite playable to me.

So W may try this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . O X . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X 4 O . O O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , X X O O 2 O . X O O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X O X X 6 X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . X . . 1 7 X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X X . X 3 X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . O b O . O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . . O . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . O , X . 8 . . , a . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In this line, W give up all the senter to get the vital point at 5. There is a question as to whether 6 genuinely is my sente or not at this time - it may be too early. I then play at 8 or a, and again seem to have a good position.

I can also consider answering the ko thereat directly e.g.:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . O X . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O a . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X 4 O . O O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , X X O O 5 O . X O O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X O X X . X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X 3 X . . 1 . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X X . X 2 X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . O b O . O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I can now cut at a, almost. reverting to the very first line showed. However, it's clearly better than that line since W's ko threat haas lost points. Or I can take the ko as in the next diagram:



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc continuation
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . O X . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 2 O . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . 3 X X O . O O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , X X O O O O . X O O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O 1 O X X . X O b O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X 4 X . . O . X X c . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X X . X X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . O . O . O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . . O a . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


W 2 may be a ko threat (it may not be. W retakes the ko. I now need a threat. a,b,c all look possible, and the position is probably quite good for B. But it's not clear cut. So I prefer the middle chunk of variations for me.

This post by drmwc was liked by: Phoenix
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Offline The Intrepid
 Post subject: Re: magicwand versus drmwc
Post #145 Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 4:30 pm 
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The post was so good, it had to be made twice! :D

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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: magicwand versus drmwc
Post #146 Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 7:06 am 
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M9

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Offline drmwc
 Post subject: Re: magicwand versus drmwc
Post #147 Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 7:33 am 
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Sorry for the double post!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm185 B has captured 7
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . O X . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X 3 O . O O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , X X O O 1 O . X O O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X . X X 2 X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . X . . O . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X X . X . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . O . O . O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: magicwand versus drmwc
Post #148 Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 9:54 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm185 B has captured 7
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . O X . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X 3 O . O O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , X X . . 1 O 4 C O O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . X X 2 X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . X . . O . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X X . X . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . O . O . O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline drmwc
 Post subject: Re: magicwand versus drmwc
Post #149 Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 2:46 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm185 B has captured 7; W has captured 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . O X . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X 3 O . O O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , X X . . 1 O 4 C O O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . X X 2 X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . X . . O . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X X . X . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . O . O . O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . . O 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


As planned. THe attachment feels more severe than 1 point to the right.

I'm willing to give up the stones on the side in some variations where I get a huge corner to compensate.
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Offline Uberdude
 Post subject: Re: magicwand versus drmwc
Post #150 Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 2:51 am 
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This game looks unusual in the way it has many stones in the centre, and few around the corners/sides; not conforming to http://senseis.xmp.net/?PointPopularityByMoveNumber.

This post by Uberdude was liked by 3 people: Bonobo, daal, gasana
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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: magicwand versus drmwc
Post #151 Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 3:06 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm185 B has captured 7; W has captured 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . O X . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O 6 . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X 3 O . O O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , X X . . 1 O 4 C O O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . X X 2 X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . X . . O . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X X . X . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . O . O . O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . . O 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
finally, i think he made mistake of not taking that three stones
although i gave up some points in the middle his potental is restricted and my group is all alive and strong..
i think the game starts now..

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Offline drmwc
 Post subject: Re: magicwand versus drmwc
Post #152 Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 4:37 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm185 B has captured 7; W has captured 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . X . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . O X . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O 6 . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X 3 O . O O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , X X . . 1 O 4 C O O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . X X 2 X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . X . . O . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X X . X . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . O . O . O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . . O 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Another unexpected move from MW. It's very big, but I'm not sure that it's urgent.

However, W is not relatively tick in the centre. This means that a W move at 91 is more than just territorial - it could develop an attack against my komuku stone. My conclusion is that 91 is the biggest move on the board. My first instinct as to play at Q4, making superb shape in the lower right. But I think the move played is bigger - I should still get something lower right, and I seem to have a territorial lead. There are some wekanesses around in my position, but nothing looks very severe for W.
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Offline Uberdude
 Post subject: Re: magicwand versus drmwc
Post #153 Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 4:50 am 
Judan

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@drmwc
drmwc wrote:
However, W is not relatively tick in the centre. This means that a W move at 91 is more than just territorial - it could develop an attack against my komuku stone.


= W is now relatively thick. But komoku? you only just played your first 3-4. Do you mean mokuhahahasizhisi or whatever 5-3 is called.
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Offline drmwc
 Post subject: Re: magicwand versus drmwc
Post #154 Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 4:55 am 
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Uberdude wrote:
@drmwc
drmwc wrote:
However, W is not relatively tick in the centre. This means that a W move at 91 is more than just territorial - it could develop an attack against my komuku stone.


= W is now relatively thick. But komoku? you only just played your first 3-4. Do you mean mokuhahahasizhisi or whatever 5-3 is called.


Yes, that is what I meant.

It was one of my many typos...
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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: magicwand versus drmwc
Post #155 Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 11:48 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm185 B has captured 7; W has captured 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . X . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . O X . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O 6 . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X 3 O . O O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , X X . . 1 O 4 C O O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . X X 2 X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . X . . O . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X X . X . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . O . O . O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . . O 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . O , X . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline jts
 Post subject: Re: magicwand versus drmwc
Post #156 Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 5:00 pm 
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@magicwand

Quote:
Very exciting game so far. I would love to hear your count of the board - or if you aren't going to count, your intuition about balance of territory/ balance of power.
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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: magicwand versus drmwc
Post #157 Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 9:13 pm 
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jts wrote:
@magicwand

Quote:
Very exciting game so far. I would love to hear your count of the board - or if you aren't going to count, your intuition about balance of territory/ balance of power.
i am not saying much because i am behind.
luckly my opponent missed his chance and gave me some hope on last ko....IMO. although my opponent is winning sofar but it is vague due to his initial cornoer formation. If he loses sente and let me attack both corner then he will lose the game for sure..
i am behind but not by much. i am sure i will get another chance before the end.

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Offline drmwc
 Post subject: Re: magicwand versus drmwc
Post #158 Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 2:59 pm 
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92 is a good move. I did not expect it. I have two choices in reply:

The first option is the most natural reply. If I do this, MW has two options.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc choice 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . O X . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O O . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X X O . O O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , X X . . X O O . O O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . X X O X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . X . . O . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X X . X . X . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . O . O . O . O . O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . . O X 2 . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . O , X . 5 . 1 O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . X 3 . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



He can play on the side. If he does this, 3 is exceedingly big. Then 5 conects my only remaining weak stone to the corner.

I think this OK for B - W needs a spectactuarly good invasion at the top to get back into the game.


MW can also play into the corner:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc choice 1, W variant
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . O X . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O O . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X X O . O O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , X X . . X O O . O O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . X X O X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . X . . O . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X X . X b X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . O . O . O O . . . . 9 a . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . . O X 3 8 0 . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . O , X . . . 1 O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . 7 . X 2 . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . 5 4 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


7 above is the easisest move for me. Following this, a is very big but not actually sente for me. b is close to being my sente, but not quite sente yet. It threatens to take some points on the bottom, and weakens W's RHS group which has all sorts of strategic benefits.

I think I still have the lead, but the diagram above feels a bit flabby for B, so I don't really like it. So I may try a variation with 7:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc choice 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . O X . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O O . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X X O . O O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , X X . . X O O . O O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . X X O X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . X . . O . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X X . X . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . O . O . O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . . O X 3 0 . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . O , X . . . 1 O 7 . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . 9 . X 2 . 8 . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . 5 4 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 continued
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . O X . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O O . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X X O . O O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , X X . . X O O . O O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . X X O X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . X . . O . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X X . X b X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . O . O . O O . . . . 3 5 . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . . O X X 2 4 . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . O , X . . . X O X 6 . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . 1 . X O . O . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is a slight improvement for me over the previous diagram, since I get to play 13 in sente. Next I'll probably play at b since keeping W weak helps to proetect the upper side. the 13-14 exchange helps in weakening W.

My second option is as below:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc choice 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . O X . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O O . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X X O . O O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , X X . . X O O . O O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . X X O X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . X . . O . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X X . X . X . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . O . O . O . O . O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . b O X 2 . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . O , X 0 7 8 3 O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . a 6 9 X 1 5 . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Following B 1 above, it may revert to the first diagram shown if MW extends with 2 and I elect to soldily connect after this. I've shown a variant to the very first diagram where I take the corner with move 5, because it's very big. Following 10, I can play a or b. (I haven't decided which is best). The move at a requires careful counting of ko threats, but it the better move if it works!


W can of course avoid all this:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc choice 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . O X . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O O . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X X O . O O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , X X . . X O O . O O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . X X O X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . X . . O . X X a . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X X . X 7 X . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . O . O . O . O . O O b . 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . . O X 4 . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . O , X . 5 3 2 O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . X 1 . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Above, I give up a ponnuki to take the side an corner. 7 is solid - I may be able to play more vigourous move. Then 8 is very big. W would like to invade the top witht his move, but if I get to play at a I take W's territoy, and potentially get an attack both sides (note the cut at b).

I may also be able to play 5 at 6.


SO it's a complex position, and I don't yet know which move I lie the best.
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Offline drmwc
 Post subject: Re: magicwand versus drmwc
Post #159 Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 6:07 am 
Lives in gote
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm185 B has captured 7; W has captured 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . X . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . O X . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O 6 . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X 3 O . O O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , X X . . 1 O 4 C O O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . X X 2 X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . X . . O . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X X . X . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . O . O . O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . . O 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . O , X . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . X 9 . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]





Write up to follow - the computer ate what I had drafted. :mad:
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Offline The Intrepid
 Post subject: Re: magicwand versus drmwc
Post #160 Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 7:56 am 
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Posts: 539
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Was liked: 45
Was it a "time out" error on the server? If so, resubmitting the message a second time gets it posted (you might have to click on the "go back to the previous page" button in your browser first, but I don't remember right now if this is necessary or not).

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