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 Post subject: Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling
Post #1 Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:07 am 
Tengen
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Have a great game :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


How about a group tax of 4?

I'm not entirely convinced the high players are better in Sygo, so I'm going to experiment a bit - obviously the group tax isn't huge, and it would be interesting with a number closer to 10 or 12, but we'll see

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 Post subject: Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling
Post #2 Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:31 am 
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Have fun (and check my name in the title :) )

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I've heard the term 'group tax' as referring to an archaic rule set in Go.
On the other hand there's 'group penalty' as in Symple, that can be varied, 4, 6, ... 12.
Sygo has no such 'group penalty', so before there's confusion, what do you mean by 'group tax'.

This game is mirrored at mindsports.

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 Post subject: Re: Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Feeling
Post #3 Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:29 am 
Tengen
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Ah, I meant group penalty, I was mixing up my rules :)

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 Post subject: Re: Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Feeling
Post #4 Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:40 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


That close I can't afford to have you block my turn order compensation :scratch: so I'll take it now.
And I see you still have 'christian feeling' for opposition :lol: .

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 Post subject: Re: Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling
Post #5 Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:49 am 
Tengen
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Hehe, thanks, I've fixed the name thing, I've no idea how that typo happened!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 5 , . . . |
$$ | . . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Your last move is interesting, and I would have thought it would have been illegal? I thought when making a move elsewhere on the compensation you'd still have to follow the rules of playing a stone not adjacent to any other stones?

If that's not the case, what other rules apply - where is it allowed to be placed or not be placed?

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 Post subject: Re: Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling
Post #6 Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:31 am 
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[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 5 , . . . |
$$ | . . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

topazg wrote:
Your last move is interesting, and I would have thought it would have been illegal?

Under all other circumstances yes. I used black's turn-order compensation. As long as neither player has grown, black is entitled to grow and place a single in the same turn (implicitly that's only once).
White is of course entitled to grow or place a single, following the protocol without such an exception.
So if white doesn't want black to use the option, he should simply grow first, trading his turn-order initiative for 1 or 2 groups of two stones (or 3? ...4? depending on what black does). If he doesn't, black can take it, also giving up a possible turn-order initiative for 1 or 2 groups of two stones (or 3? ...4? depending on what white does).
I just did that.

I have already noticed that this mechanism for fairness isn't immediately obvious, but it's worth thinking through.

The timing of the black's taking / white's preventing it depends on opening tactics. If I had played :b4: at P16, you could have moved like this, for example:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 4 , . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Preventing black from using the option. Black would have had the turn-order initiative (being the one to move with an equal number of groups on the board) but :b2: would be doomed or very costly to rescue. So I grabbed the money :) .

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Last edited by christian freeling on Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling
Post #7 Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:40 am 
Tengen
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 7 . . . . 5 , . . . |
$$ | . . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Mmm, I read the "As long as neither player has grown, black is entitled to grow and place a single in the same turn (implicitly that's only once)", but it wasn't clear that the single stone Black could place would not follow the normal single stone placement rules - Or was I just confused on those, you are allowed to place a stone anywhere that isn't orthogonally connected to your own stones, but your opponent's stones are fine?

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 Post subject: Re: Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling
Post #8 Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:54 am 
Honinbo

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Thanks to both players. This should be interesting. :)

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This post by Bill Spight was liked by: christian freeling
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 Post subject: Re: Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling
Post #9 Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:03 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . 8 7 . . . . 5 , . . . |
$$ | . . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


topazg wrote:
Mmm, I read the "As long as neither player has grown, black is entitled to grow and place a single in the same turn (implicitly that's only once)", but it wasn't clear that the single stone Black could place would not follow the normal single stone placement rules - Or was I just confused on those, you are allowed to place a stone anywhere that isn't orthogonally connected to your own stones, but your opponent's stones are fine?

The rules say

* White moves first. On his turn a player may either put a stone on a vacant cell, not connected to a like-colored group, thereby creating a new group, or grow any or all of his groups by one stone.

The idea that placement should be restricted, other than to distinguish between 'growing a group' and 'placing a single', is very un-Go. In general, I like mechanisms, especially 'organic' ones, to have maximum freedom :bow: , each within its own context.
For maximum restiction, look elsewhere :grumpy: .

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 Post subject: Re: Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling
Post #10 Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:51 pm 
Tengen
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 1 4 . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . 8 7 . . . . 5 9 . . . |
$$ | . . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Ah, ok, many thanks :)

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 Post subject: Re: Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling
Post #11 Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:52 pm 
Tengen

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I should note that I'm playing a game against you on the mindsports site, Christian.

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Post #12 Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:14 pm 
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hyperpape wrote:
I should note that I'm playing a game against you on the mindsports site, Christian.

Ah, Mr. Blank I presume? And we're also playing Havannah at LG :) .

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Post #13 Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:25 pm 
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[go]$$Bcm10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . X O . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
:white: 8 :black: 9

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Post #14 Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:37 pm 
Tengen
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[go]$$Wcm11 :white: 9 | :black: 9
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X O . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So far, this is rather interesting. I'm actually beginning to suspect that this is more territorial than normal Go...

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 Post subject: Re: Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling
Post #15 Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:44 pm 
Tengen

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christian freeling wrote:
hyperpape wrote:
I should note that I'm playing a game against you on the mindsports site, Christian.

Ah, Mr. Blank I presume? And we're also playing Havannah at LG :) .
...yes. Of course I might want to forget that fact.

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 Post subject: Re: Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling
Post #16 Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 3:37 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 :white: 9 | :black: 10
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


topazg wrote:
So far, this is rather interesting. I'm actually beginning to suspect that this is more territorial than normal Go...

I'm not sure how any game could be more territorial than Go. Less territorial, yes, we've seen that just recently, but more ... :scratch:

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 Post subject: Re: Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling
Post #17 Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:29 pm 
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I think Topazg means in terms of the territory/influence tradeoff in Go.

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This post by hyperpape was liked by: topazg
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 Post subject: Re: Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling
Post #18 Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:57 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 :white: 10 | :black: 10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling
Post #19 Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:11 am 
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hyperpape wrote:
I think Topazg means in terms of the territory/influence tradeoff in Go.
Ah, I understand, but I'm not a very reliable judge regarding that comparison. I've seen games though where 'influence' paid off very well (usually for my opponent). At times you're forced to grow by a local situation where you'd rather would have started a new group. By the time you're out of the woods locally, the opponent has gained more infuence in the invasion area. Good play of course prevents one from getting in that predicament in the first place.

But my two aren't even pennies at the moment.

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 Post subject: Re: Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling
Post #20 Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:13 am 
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Posts: 82
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 :white: 10 | :black: 11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X O . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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