Sygovitch - topazg vs Christian Freeling

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:07 am

Have a great game

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How about a group tax of 4?

christian freeling · Post by **christian freeling** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:31 am

Have fun (and check my name in the title

)

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I've heard the term 'group tax' as referring to an archaic rule set in Go.
On the other hand there's 'group penalty' as in Symple, that can be varied, 4, 6, ... 12.
Sygo has no such 'group penalty', so before there's confusion, what do you mean by 'group tax'.

This game is mirrored at mindsports.

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:29 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Ah, I meant group penalty, I was mixing up my rules

christian freeling · Post by **christian freeling** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:40 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

That close I can't afford to have you block my turn order compensation

so I'll take it now.
And I see you still have 'christian feeling' for opposition

.

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:49 am

Hehe, thanks, I've fixed the name thing, I've no idea how that typo happened!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 5 , . . . | $$ | . . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Your last move is interesting, and I would have thought it would have been illegal? I thought when making a move elsewhere on the compensation you'd still have to follow the rules of playing a stone not adjacent to any other stones?

If that's not the case, what other rules apply - where is it allowed to be placed or not be placed?

christian freeling · Post by **christian freeling** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:31 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 5 , . . . | $$ | . . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

topazg wrote:Your last move is interesting, and I would have thought it would have been illegal?

Under all other circumstances yes. I used black's turn-order compensation. As long as neither player has grown, black is entitled to grow and place a single in the same turn (implicitly that's only once).
White is of course entitled to grow or place a single, following the protocol without such an exception.
So if white doesn't want black to use the option, he should simply grow first, trading his turn-order initiative for 1 or 2 groups of two stones (or 3? ...4? depending on what black does). If he doesn't, black can take it, also giving up a possible turn-order initiative for 1 or 2 groups of two stones (or 3? ...4? depending on what white does).
I just did that.

I have already noticed that this mechanism for fairness isn't immediately obvious, but it's worth thinking through.

The timing of the black's taking / white's preventing it depends on opening tactics. If I had played

at P16, you could have moved like this, for example:

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Preventing black from using the option. Black would have had the turn-order initiative (being the one to move with an equal number of groups on the board) but

would be doomed or very costly to rescue. So I grabbed the money

.

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:40 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . 7 . . . . 5 , . . . | $$ | . . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Mmm, I read the "As long as neither player has grown, black is entitled to grow and place a single in the same turn (implicitly that's only once)", but it wasn't clear that the single stone Black could place would not follow the normal single stone placement rules - Or was I just confused on those, you are allowed to place a stone anywhere that isn't orthogonally connected to your own stones, but your opponent's stones are fine?

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:54 am

Thanks to both players. This should be interesting.

christian freeling · Post by **christian freeling** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:03 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . 8 7 . . . . 5 , . . . | $$ | . . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

topazg wrote:Mmm, I read the "As long as neither player has grown, black is entitled to grow and place a single in the same turn (implicitly that's only once)", but it wasn't clear that the single stone Black could place would not follow the normal single stone placement rules - Or was I just confused on those, you are allowed to place a stone anywhere that isn't orthogonally connected to your own stones, but your opponent's stones are fine?

The rules say

* White moves first. On his turn a player may either put a stone on a vacant cell, not connected to a like-colored group, thereby creating a new group, or grow any or all of his groups by one stone.

The idea that placement should be restricted, other than to distinguish between 'growing a group' and 'placing a single', is very un-Go. In general, I like mechanisms, especially 'organic' ones, to have maximum freedom

, each within its own context.
For maximum restiction, look elsewhere

.

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:51 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 1 4 . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . 8 7 . . . . 5 9 . . . | $$ | . . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Ah, ok, many thanks

hyperpape · Post by **hyperpape** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:52 pm

I should note that I'm playing a game against you on the mindsports site, Christian.

christian freeling · Post by **christian freeling** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:14 pm

hyperpape wrote:I should note that I'm playing a game against you on the mindsports site, Christian.

Ah, Mr. Blank I presume? And we're also playing Havannah at LG

.

christian freeling · Post by **christian freeling** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:25 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . X O . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

8

9

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:37 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm11 :white: 9 | :black: 9 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . X O . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So far, this is rather interesting. I'm actually beginning to suspect that this is more territorial than normal Go...

hyperpape · Post by **hyperpape** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:44 pm

christian freeling wrote:
hyperpape wrote:I should note that I'm playing a game against you on the mindsports site, Christian.
Ah, Mr. Blank I presume? And we're also playing Havannah at LG .

...yes. Of course I might want to forget that fact.

Life In 19x19