Many Faces of Go vs Go++ vs SmartGo

[nagano]

I would recommend MoyoGo, which is available again. It does all that you would require. If you want more options related to search, as well as free database updates yearly, I would look into MasterGo. It does not have as many advanced pattern search features as Moyogo, but its has a dynamic whole board search system, which allows much faster analysis than MoyoGo.

[Mike Novack]

Nobody has any thoughts or experience with GO++?

I do and can explain the current status. I not only used to use Go++ back in the pre MCTS days (and when I was weaker) but was helping Michael Reiss by beta tesing Go++8, his attempt at a MCTS version.

The fact that G0++8 has not been released should tell you something. Fairly early in that testing process I had to give "Mick" the unwelcome news that his program was several stones weaker than the new (now MCTS) MFOG. Last I heard from him he had given himself a tine limit to get his program competitive or drop out of the competition of writing go playing programs. That drop dead date is long passed so I think we will not be seeing any more versions of Go++.

Especially since you mention being on a tight budget.....

a) At this point in time even gnugo would be stronger than Go++7 and of course feugo, using MCTS, much stronger. The playing strength of the programs is not an issue at the moment given how weak you say you are but the passivity of the non MCTS programs is. Gnugo or fuego would be free.

b) A program like MFOG is more than just an opponent. The program offers joseki and fuseki tutor, problems, etc. Not cheap but (at least in the past) you pay full price for the program once and then get any future major releases at a steep dicount (and interim upgrades/fixes free). MFOG 12 hasn't had a change release since 1/11 so overdue which means you might want to wait on that, except at your level there would be no need to immediately upgrade to a newer/stronger engine. Also for learning, you can ask MFOG to tell you "why" (why it made a move).

I am less familiar with the "extra" features of the others but that's the sort of thing you want to find out before buying.

[blade90]

What I forgot to mention is that Go++ is only god for playing.

I have to say at my current level I only use SmartGo, it comes with a database of pro games, more than 2000 problems and is very easy to use. It's great for analyzing your games, since it has many helpfull tools.

You can also play against smartgo but it is very weak maybe around KGS 15k (I'm not sure, but I never lost against it even as KGS 12k). The good part is if you have become to strong for smartgo, then you can add other engines like the free gnugo which is stronger.

SmartGo is my favourite and I use it every day

[judicata]

Out of curiosity how good is MFOG for analysis these days, how good is the problem selection and would you recommend it as a playing partner? Thanks.

MFOG is great for giving you ideas, and it offers reasons for its moves/suggestions. Of course, nothing is as good as a teacher, but it's very nice. I like it as an opponent to; it can beat me on a "modern" laptop. There are also many options for tweaking the engine.

I find the moves suggested by Zen in many positions to be stronger/more interesting, though it doesn't offer explanations. You can see Zen "thinking" about candidate moves, winrate, etc., which is pretty neat.

I can't comment on MFOG's problems--I haven't looked at them much. (Note that neither Zen nor CrazyStone come with problems.)

[SCWillson]

a) At this point in time even gnugo would be stronger than Go++7 and of course feugo, using MCTS, much stronger. The playing strength of the programs is not an issue at the moment given how weak you say you are but the passivity of the non MCTS programs is. Gnugo or fuego would be free.

I downloaded Gnugo but I'm not enough of a geek to figure out how to install a GUI to make it usable. Do you know where I could find "Install Gnugo for Dummies" so I could figure out how to use it? I'm perfectly willing to pay for good Go program, but if I can find one that does the same job for free then I can spend that money on more Go books instead.

Thanks for the info on Go++; that pretty much knocks it out of the running. While the dan/kyu strength of the program isn't of particular interest this early in my Go career I do plan to improve. More importantly, I want a Go program that offers continuing support and is still being improved upon rather than one gathering metaphorical dust.

That leaves only SmartGo and MFG12. If I had an iPad this would be a no brainer, but I don't foresee one of those in my immediate future.

[SCWillson]

I would recommend MoyoGo, which is available again. It does all that you would require. If you want more options related to search, as well as free database updates yearly, I would look into MasterGo. It does not have as many advanced pattern search features as Moyogo, but its has a dynamic whole board search system, which allows much faster analysis than MoyoGo.

Thank you for your suggestions. I was unable to get the MasterGo demo to even install on my system, so obviously I'm not going to buy something I can't run.

What about MoyoGo in particular makes you recommend it?It is significantly less expensive ($27) than MFG ($90) or SmartGo ($50) but in what ways is it equal or superior to the more expensive commercial programs?

[Mike Novack]

Gnugo or fuego would be free.

I downloaded Gnugo but I'm not enough of a geek to figure out how to install a GUI to make it usable. Do you know where I could find "Install Gnugo for Dummies" so I could figure out how to use it? I'm perfectly willing to pay for good Go program, but if I can find one that does the same job for free then I can spend that money on more Go books instead.[/quote]

I suspect if you ask for specific help with that you could get it.

Begin by specifying what operating system you use.

[blade90]

I downloaded Gnugo but I'm not enough of a geek to figure out how to install a GUI to make it usable. Do you know where I could find "Install Gnugo for Dummies" so I could figure out how to use it?

It's easy, I use glGo (IGS client) but other GUIs are just as easy. You can get glGo here: http://www.pandanet.co.jp/English/glgo/

After you start it you get to a kind of menu screen, there you click on "Preferences" -> "GNU go" and enter the path to the gnu go exe (example: C:\gnugo-3.8\gnugo.exe). Lastly you have to enter the "GNU Go Parameters" (example: --mode gtp --quiet), now you can play gnugo when you click on "Play GNU Go" in the menu screen.

(This is for windows if you use linux I can give you info about that as well)

[SCWillson]

Just rechecked the MFG12 website. It costs $90. Version 11 is $40.

I'm going to have to rethink this purchase completely. I had $50 budgeted. $90 is just too much.

I'm taking another look at SmartGo. The graphics are weak and I have no idea what level I'm playing against, but the problems were fun.

[nagano]

Thank you for your suggestions. I was unable to get the MasterGo demo to even install on my system, so obviously I'm not going to buy something I can't run.

Hmm... this doesn't sound right to me. Are you running Windows? If so, what version? If Vista or 7, did you try XP compatibility mode?

What about MoyoGo in particular makes you recommend it?It is significantly less expensive ($27) than MFG ($90) or SmartGo ($50) but in what ways is it equal or superior to the more expensive commercial programs?

It does not have its own playing engine, but uses GnuGo. However, I think GnuGo would be more than sufficient for your needs, at least for now. The main focus of the program is it's database and pattern matching features. MasterGo's capabilities are similar, and more intuitive for searching basic corner patterns. But MoyoGo has a feature that allows you to search for patterns quickly anywhere on the board, and also a feature that shows the statistically likely choices for the next move. Another factor to consider is that MoyoGo is also an SGF editor, so it can function as an all-in-one, like SmartGo. I should add though, that MoyoGo is known for more compatibility issues than MasterGo (which is quite stable) so I don't know if you would be able to get it running or not.

[Boidhre]

It does not have its own playing engine, but uses GnuGo. However, I think GnuGo would be more than sufficient for your needs, at least for now. The main focus of the program is it's database and pattern matching features. MasterGo's capabilities are similar, and more intuitive for searching basic corner patterns. But MoyoGo has a feature that allows you to search for patterns quickly anywhere on the board, and also a feature that shows the statistically likely choices for the next move. Another factor to consider is that MoyoGo is also an SGF editor, so it can function as an all-in-one, like SmartGo. I should add though, that MoyoGo is known for more compatibility issues than MasterGo (which is quite stable) so I don't know if you would be able to get it running or not.

Is MoyoGo substantially better at pattern matching than either Kombilo or SmartGo?

[nagano]

Is MoyoGo substantially better at pattern matching than either Kombilo or SmartGo?

Yes. It is substantially faster, and most searches can be done dynamically, whereas with Kombilo and SmartGo it is more of a snapshot at a time. Plus many of the search features it has don't even exist in other programs.

[Boidhre]

Is MoyoGo substantially better at pattern matching than either Kombilo or SmartGo?

Yes. It is substantially faster, and most searches can be done dynamically, whereas with Kombilo and SmartGo it is more of a snapshot at a time. Plus many of the search features it has don't even exist in other programs.

Thanks.

[shapenaji]

While Moyogo is an amazing program,

I feel I have to point out that it's the most controversial of those programs.

http://senseis.xmp.net/?MoyoGo

Those controversies may or may not be an issue for you, But I stopped following moyogo because of its creator's views.

But, as I said, it is very, very well done.

[Boidhre]

I'm considering Many Faces of Go 12. It's pretty much last on my list of things I've been considering go wise to buy in the immediate future. Now it's expensive at $90 which is somewhat a turn-off but one cannot deny that you get a lot of useful things in the package. What I'm interested in is people's experiences with using MFOG or Crazy Stone or similar with self study. Did you benefit a lot from it? I'm familar with many of the arguments against playing with AIs but I'm attracted to MFOG's review function where it gives its thoughts on your moves or better moves than the one you made.

Thoughts?