21st Century Dictionary of Basic Joseki

[dankenzon]

The Vol. 2 of this new Dictionary was supposed to be ready early in 2012.

Looks like we will have it middle or late 2012.
Let's wait and see.

[Jedo]

Yeah, anyone have any word on when volume two is coming out?

[dankenzon]

As long as I know, after an email to Kiseido asking about it,

they are (around) in the final 20% of the translation/review of the Vol. 2

So I think it would be ready (This is my estimation) anymoment from set / oct. this year

[dankenzon]

I'd be interested to know how the new book by Takao compares with Jungsuk in Our Time by Seo Bong-soo?

Quite different aim for the books. The Junsuk one focuses only in few lines of some josekis giving some "new" moves (now not so new) while the Takao volumes a wide horizon of possible joseki.

[DeaconJohn]

I'd be interested to know how the new book by Takao compares with Jungsuk in Our Time by Seo Bong-soo?

Quite different aim for the books. The Junsuk one focuses only in few lines of some josekis giving some "new" moves (now not so new) while the Takao volumes a wide horizon of possible joseki.

Thanks so much for the info Dankenzon. Gowan's question has been hanging around for quite some time. I have been curious about the answer ever since the question was first posted. Here is another question:

"How does Takao fit into the currently available English language joseki literautre?" (Footnote 1)

The above question is related to the question that you asked, Gowan. I will take a stab at an answer. I would be very interested in any insights that you, Gowan, or others, might have.

My first observation is that the Takao book is addressed to kyu-level players. The next two paragraphs explain what I mean by that.

The operative word in the title is of Takao's book is "Basic". These are "basic", in the sense of "elementary", josekis. In other words, joseki that provide worthwhile study for kyu players who have "plateaued" and now need to do some study to be able to advance to the next rank. I am a single digit kyu (sdk) myself, so when I say "kyu" I primarily mean sdk's. I suspect that KGS players weaker than 13k would not profit much from studying Takao's book.

Takao's book will be useful to many one dan players. Especially, those who have reached dan solely on the basis of reading skills, playing experience, game reviews, and maybe a few lessons from pros. But, most of us have to do some hard-core study before we reach the dan level. In other words, the primary audience is players whose knowledge of joseki is only on the kyu level. I am not qualified to discuss the relevance of Takao's book for 2 dans and above.

In the rest of this post, I will explain a five levels classification system for kyu-level joseki books. Takao's book is a "Level 4" book in this system. "Introduction to the Game of Go" books, which introduce the concept of joseki to the beginner, would be "Level 0" books, so, technically, there are six levels. Hopefully, this classification system will illuminate how Takao fits into the context of the English language joseki literature.

Takao's book is only one level more advanced than Kosugi & Davies' "38 Basic Joseki", although "38 Basic Joseki" itself is already a "Level 3" book. "A Gentle Approach to Joseki" is an example of a Level 2 book. The early chapters of Ishigure's "In the Beginning" give a "Level 1" introduction to joseki, although, the fuseki presented in "In the Beginning" is Level 2 material (Footnote 2). Last time I checked, all three of these books were available on the web, as was the first edition of Takao. (Ishida wrote the first edition of Takao.) The joseki in the Takao edition occur more frequently in today's professional games then do the joseki mentioned in the Ishida edition (Footnote 3).

Every time the "38 Basic Joseki" book mentions says something like "this variation or this joseki is out of scope of this book," you will find it covered in Takao if it is a komuku (3-4) joseki. This was the case for the Ishida book for all joseki in "38 Basic Joseki", whether or not they are komoku joseki. Undoubtedly, this will also be the case for Takao when Volume 2 comes out (Footnote 4).

Takao's "Level 4" book is already quite thick when compared to "38 Basic Joseki". A comprehensive "Level 5" joseki book would be quite think indeed. Perhaps the size of the Encyclopedia Britannica, even if it only treated the most well established joseki in use in professional play. There is no comprehensive Level 5 book in the English language as far as I know. "Level 5" books treat only a small selection of the available joseki.

The two joseki books in the Nihon-Kiin handbook series (Even Game Joseki and Handicap Joseki) my favorites Level 5 books. "Tricks in Joseki" is very good for how to punish moves that deviate from true Joseki (for a few of the more common variations). Though I haven't read it, my guess is that "Bong-soo" is also a Level 5 book.

Footnotes:

(1) Takao should really be called Takao/Powers since the translator, John Powers, made significant improvements to the exposition of the Japanese edition when he translated the book into English. It was a "labor of love", and it shows.

(2) A Classification System for Kyu-level Fuseki Material Illustrated By Examples:

Level 1: "Get Strong at The Opening" by Bozulich
Level 2: "In the Beginning", by Ishigure
Level 3: "Fuseki", a Nihon-Kiin handbook
Level 3: "501 Opening Problems" by Bozulich and Zeijst
Level 4: "A Way of Play for the 21st Century" by Go Seigen
Level 5: "The Chinese Opening, the sure-win strategy" by Masao Kato

(3) The Ishida edition of the Takao dictionary contains much material that the Takao edition does not. It contains older joseki that are not seen in professional play very often these days. However, they are seen in amateur play, and especially in handicap games (at least on KGS). Also, Ishida has many examples from professional play that illustrate when it is appropriate to use the josekis whereas Takao has no such examples. Hence the Ishida and the Takao editions complement each other. Any kyu player who is also a student of the game will benefit from having both of them.

(4) "38 Basic Joseki" has material that is not in the Takao/Ishida books. For example, there are explanations of when to use the joseki under consideration and when not to use them. These explanations include simple examples constructed to illustrate the points being made in the explanations. The examples from professional games in Ishida have so much going on, that it distracts from understanding the points Ishida is making. In other words, don't throw your copy of "38 Basic Joseki" away! Even if you have mastered the material in Ishida/Takao/Powers.

[oren]

Interesting review, but can you search/replace all of Takeo with Takao.

Takeo should really be called Takeo/Powers since the translator, John Powers, made significant improvements to the exposition of the Japanese edition when he translated the book into English. It was a "labor of love", and it shows.

Can you give details for this?

The operative word in the title is of Takeo's book is "Basic"

Interesting because the Japanese title I would translate as Fundamental and not "Basic".

[RobertJasiek]

How does Takeo fit into the currently available English language joseki literautre?

(Note that I have not read Takao's dictionary but have read only the available German or English samples.)

The English joseki literature can be classified into these kinds of books (or book series):

1) Tactical selections meant as a taster for beginners of learning some tactical joseki variations if they do not dare to extract a dictionary's simple variations for that purpose. Typical example: 38 Basic Joseki.

2) Tactical selections for advanced kyu or dan players, specialised for a particular kind of josekis. Typical example: Jungsuk in Our Time specialises in somewhat complicated almost-modern Korean joseki novelties.

3) Tactical dictionaries. There are the Ishida and the Takao. The Ishida has the relative advantages of professional game examples and greater variety of outdated variations. The Takao has the relative advantages of less outdated and more (which fraction?) modern variations and of on average more simple variations (but the samples could be misleading). As far as I have heard, every intermediate to strong dan having read the Ishida does not wish to read the Takao because the more modern variations do not outweigh the smaller variety of outdated variations (which were still useful for acquiring a more detailed tactical knowledge). For kyu players not having read the Ishida, the supposed greater simplicity of the Takao may be a relative advantage. I, when I was a kyu player, would have missed the game examples though. So a kyu player seeking a first dictionary is actually now given a hard choice if all he wants is a tactical dictionary; hardly any kyu player would afford to buy both series.

4) Tactical problem book: Players considering the effort of learning all moves of all josekis of a detailed dictionary too hard have the alternative of learning a supposedly representative selection of most interesting joseki moves by solving problems. Most detailed example: Get Strong at Joseki. In my opinion, such books cannot replace a dictionary's study but maybe they are a taster for players wishing to prepare themselves for the greater plan.

5) A specialised topic of go theory taught by examples. Typical example: Whole Board Thinking in Joseki has early opening game examples / problems for only the topic of strategic choices. Useful but too specialised and without general go theory.

6) A selective, specialised taster on general go theory. Typical example: The joseki chapter of Fundamental Principles of Go. Useful (especially because it is generally applicable) but too specialised and only a taster.

7) General go theory books not about josekis but applicable also to josekis. Typical example: Strategic Concepts of Go, which is very useful but teaches only and only a few strategic concepts.

8) Joseki dictionary of strategic choices, tactical choices and values of territory and influence. Only example: Joseki Vol. 3 Dictionary, chapter 4 (164 pages). Compared to the Ishida, it also offers professional game examples. Compared to the Takao, it also offers modern josekis. Compared to both, it has about the same authority (professional experience or relying on professional databases), it has much less tactical failure variations but it has strategic choices and values of territory and influence. Fewer tactical variations are an advantage for a kyu learner but a disadvantage for a dan player wishing a detailed reference. Strategic choices and evaluation are, in my prejudiced opinion as an author, a great advantage. As a reader of joseki dictionaries, I would even say: very great advantage. That both were missing when I read the Ishida made learning josekis much harder because, in a purely tactical dictionary, one has to work out the strategic choices by oneself and badly misses evaluation of influence at all. Nevertheless, the reference function of a purely tactical dictionary is also very useful. So I would recommend to read both - a strategic / evaluation dictionary and a more detailed tactical dictionary. In which order? I would start with the simpler (because tactically less detailed) and cheaper one, also because it provides the structure with which understanding of the purely tactical dictionaries becomes easier.

9) General go and joseki theory books explaining every aspect of joseki strategy and evaluation. Only example: My Joseki series (Vol. 1, Vol. 2, Vol. 3 chapters 2 and 3). Compared to (7), there is everything instead of only something, but this advantage can also be a disadvantage for those learners disliking a great density of knowledge (even if partly it is the only or only English source for some of the knowledge). Compared to (3) and (8), general go theory books are the ideal complement. A player needs both: theory and tactical variations.

Conclusion: There are these decisions to be made:
- Only tactics, only theory or both.
- Learning from dictionary, problems, theory or from all kinds.
- Starting with selections or entering the sea immediately (or having started with the former and continuing with the latter).
- Only tactics or also strategy and evaluation. If both, then which first.
- If you choose only tactics, then choose also game examples (Ishida) or also modern variations (Takao).

Isn't it very nice that today players have a choice? At my time as a joseki learner, there was almost only the Ishida...!

[DeaconJohn]

Interesting review, but, can you replace all of Takeo with Takao?

Done. Thank you for pointing out this misspelling. I also added author's names and corrected typos in the titles of the other books that I mentioned. My impression that the translation was a "labor of love" comes both from the very high quality use of the English language and from private communication with the translator.

[DeaconJohn]

Robert,

Thank you for you interesting review of the kyu-level joseki literature.

Also, thank you for mentioning your joseki dictionary. I was not previously aware of its nature and I appreciate the information. It is definitely on my "to buy" list. In case anybody else wants more information regarding these three volumes, here is the web address:

http://home.snafu.de/jasiek/books.html

There is one minor point in your post upon which I would like to expand:

For kyu players not having read the Ishida, the supposed greater simplicity of the Takao may be a relative advantage. I, when I was a kyu player, would have missed the game examples though. So, a kyu player seeking a first dictionary is actually now given a hard choice if all he wants is a tactical dictionary; hardly any kyu player would afford to buy both series.

The Ishida edition is available on-line for free. After I look up a joseki in Takao, if I want to understand it better, I then look up the joseki in Ishida. If I get that far, I normally look at the sample games too. The sample games include instructive comments and side variations.

John

[karaklis]

The Ishida edition is available on-line for free.

Are you sure this is a legal copy? If yes, would you mind to put a link here? Thank you.

[DeaconJohn]

The Ishida edition is available on-line for free.

Are you sure this is a legal copy? If yes, would you mind to put a link here? Thank you.

Karaklis,

Last time I checked, the Ishida edition could be downloaded from the publisher's web site without charge. That makes me about 99.99% sure that the copy was legal. That number assumes a one in ten thousand chance that the publisher's site was hacked. On second thought, can't imagine why anyone would want to hack in such a manner! Make that 99.9999%.

Did you even do a web search before you asked me to post a link for you?

Angry,

Deacon John

ps I'm angry, mostly at myself, because I almost complied with your request!

[CnP]

No need to be angry I think it's not obvious - even to someone with access to the google search
engine.

I mean - you're talking about the English language translation of Ishida? i.e. Kiseido's web page:

http://www.kiseido.com/Dictionary.htm

since Ishi press is no longer around. Not a single download link to be seen that I could find - and I checked their digital section too. Search engines only brought up illegal copies. I'm very curious to see the web page you mean as it's obviously something I've missed and I'd love to have a look.

best wishes.

[daal]

The Ishida edition is available on-line for free.

Are you sure this is a legal copy? If yes, would you mind to put a link here? Thank you.

Karaklis,

Last time I checked, the Ishida edition could be downloaded from the publisher's web site without charge. That makes me about 99.99% sure that the copy was legal. That number assumes a one in ten thousand chance that the publisher's site was hacked. On second thought, can't imagine why anyone would want to hack in such a manner! Make that 99.9999%.

Did you even do a web search before you asked me to post a link for you?

Angry,

Deacon John

ps I'm angry, mostly at myself, because I almost complied with your request!

I don't quite understand your huffy tone. I did a search, and found the books being offered by Kiseido for 25$ /volume.

[jts]

Yes, I also searched, just like Daal, CnP, and (I assume) Karaklis. For all your indignation, you should realize that you've sent a number of people on a wild goose-chase today.

Fwiw, the Nihon Kiin does not seem to supply a download either: I believe this is the nearest thing their bookstore has to a page on Ishida? http://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/publishing/2 ... t_156.html

If you could be more specific about which publisher you're talking about and when you saw them distributing the dictionary on their website, I think you might satisfy our collective curiousity. Thanks!

[RobertJasiek]

Thank you for you interesting review of the kyu-level joseki literature.

A mini-review:) Most of my real reviews are here:
http://www.gobooks.info/jasiek/
Some of the mentioned joseki books are useful for kyu and dan players.