joppon wrote:...snip...
Plenty of Japanese players show up. It's just that the vast majority are beaten in the preliminaries and so it may seem that none show up.
...snip...
Although this statement is rational and may even be true in almost all cases. I think it is clear that this is not necessarily the factor which most motivates. The Chinese and Korean youngsters are both in systems in which rank is 'everything'. Their entire day, everyday, is devoted to improving their rank amongst their peers. To ignore the power of social status is a mistake. Look at your own life: your hairstyle, your clothing, the car you drive, who you spend your time with. All this and more will depend in a big way on the social status(rank) associated with them. Why you imagine these people to be any different, I don't know.
...snip...
joppon's post contains many good points. I admit that my assumptions are gross simplifications. The case may be made that the Nihon Ki-in's system is flawed. Perhaps we can even say that Japan has fallen behind China and Korea. However, I often read that the difference is huge. Japanese success (or lack thereof) in international tournament has a definite endogenous component that we cannot properly measure.
I will address two specific points related to the quoted portions above.
POINT 1The top Japanese players may not participate in preliminary tournaments as much as the top Korean and Chinese players.
It may possibly be the case that nearly all Japanese players who participate in the preliminary tournaments have not even sniffed a domestic title. Let's look at the participation in the recent BC Card Cup.
- In main tournament: Yamashita Keigo(9d), Iyama Yuta(9d), Murakawa Daisuke(7d), Ida Atsushi(3d)
- In preliminary tournament: Oya Koichi(9d), Fujisawa Rina(1d), Miyamoto Chiharu(1d), Komatsu Hideki(9d), Ichiriki Ryo(2d), Kikkawa Hajime(1d), Yun Chunho(1d), Shuto Shun(7d), Okuma Yuto(1d), Murakami Akihide(2d), Tsuruta Kazushi(1d), Murakawa Daisuke(7d), Ohashi Hirofumi(5d), Takemiya Yoko(5d), O Keiko(1d), Numadate Sakiya(1d), Kanazawa Hideo(7d), Seto Taiki(7d), Shida Tatsuya(5d), Ida Atsushi(3d), Sato Yohei(1d), Yamada Shinji(6d), Ha Youngil(5d), Rin Kanketsu(7d), Anzai Nobuaki(6d), Hon Seisen(1d), Tsuneishi Takashi(1d)
Yamashita and Iyama were seeded and did not participate in the preliminary tournament. They are also the only Japanese players in the above list who are legitimate contenders for domestic titles in Japan. Murakawa might be a promising player, but he couldn't get into the Meijin and Kisei leagues and has not sniffed a major title yet. He is in Iyama's generation of players.
Contrast this to the Korean players. Lee Changho, Park Yeonghun, Lee Younggu, Heo Yeongho, Baek Hongsuk...all participated in the preliminary tournament. These are all title holders, recent title challengers, or top rankers, i.e., legitimate title contenders.
Contrast this to the Chinese players. Zhou Heyang, Hu Yaoyu, Piao Wenyao, Xie He, Chen Yaoye, Qiu Jun, Tan Xiao...all participated in the preliminary tournament. These are all title holders, recent title challengers, or top rankers, i.e., legitimate contenders.
At least in this
one recent tournament, it seems that top Korean and Chinese players found it worthwhile to participate in the preliminary tournament, but the top Japanese players did not.
Where were Cho U, Takao Shinji, Hane Naoki, Sakai Hideyuki, Yuki Satoshi? Not even Kono Rin or Yamada Kimio? Presumably studying up on the game records of the 10 or so competitors they need to beat in Japan. The
runner-up to the Gosei tournament (a "lesser" major title) gets $28000. The Meijin
runner-up gets $133000.
POINT 2This is related to the first point. I was talking about the top ranked players in Japan in regards to their participation in international tournaments, not necessarily the young players. In fact, it looks like many low-dan Japanese players were in the preliminary tournament of the BC Card Cup, so it may even seem that
young players (and also weaker players) who want to play more games (because they love go/want training) are actually the ones who are seeking out the international tournaments.
And...?Well, it's hard to draw a definite conclusion from any of this. However, it does make us wonder if the inferiority of the Japanese go players has been somewhat exaggerated. Who knows... How much weaker would they be if they were able to
frequently face the Chinese/Koreans under international tournament time settings in serious games?
The competition that you face (and how seriously you take it) makes a huge difference. In his autobiography, Lee Sedol credited his participation in the Chinese leagues as an important factor in his improvement as a player. One of his objections to participating the Korean Baduk League early on was that he would frequently be playing low-ranked players for low stakes under fast time settings, all of which would be inferior to playing against top-ranked Chinese players under international tournament time settings in the Chinese leagues.
Cheers, go friends. I will log-off this discussion, but it was interesting. No one likes flooding, not even the one doing the flooding. I think I typed way too much.
