Where is the crucial mistake...1k vs. 1k?

Pippen · Post by **Pippen** » Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:59 pm

One of those game that I (White) felt slipped away right from the beginning. Where is the crucial mistake? My feeling is that Black got too much moyo at the beginning I should have prevented or should have reduced better.

daal · Post by **daal** » Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:16 pm

What about M16? It induced your opponent into strengthening his moyo, it doesn't really make territory, and defending O17 is not critical as it has two ways to go (connect or move into the corner). I'm not sure of a better move (somewhere around M13, where your opponent played perhaps?), but I'm curious if anyone agrees with me.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:28 am

I don't know if it is crucial, but :w8:

at R-09 or R-10 (wedge) is usual.

Also, for

I like a double kakari better than the 3-3.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:02 am

A few more comments.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:46 am

Bill Spight wrote:I don't know if it is crucial, but at R-09 or R-10 (wedge) is usual. Also, for I like a double kakari better than the 3-3.

[citation needed]

That approach looked utterly normal to me. Checking my database I get 149 hits, to 45 for r10 and 11 for r9. Black did win a little over 50% with approach and a little under with the wedges, but even if it is a mistake (which I don't believe) it's pretty irrelevant unless you and your opponent play the rest of the game at a 13p level. I do like double kakari though seeing as black played a loose pincer.

As for crucial mistakes as in replaying the game I fall out my chair without even having to think "what's a better move":

48 q2. Giving up the 2 stones is so huge and makes your ko threat tiny.
54 f18. You let him win the ko in sente. Too humilating. If you wanted to play here if he won the ko, you shouldn't have started the ko (and could instead have attacked e12 group with cap).
56 c13. Eww, so crude
64 d2: What are you doing? I thought the point of the crude c13 cut was to attack black and save your k10 stone, but then you just decided to give black 30 points in the centre with his weak group? (well they aren't points yet, but once he gets the first move he's attacking you rather than vice versa).

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:31 pm

Uberdude wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:I don't know if it is crucial, but at R-09 or R-10 (wedge) is usual. Also, for I like a double kakari better than the 3-3.

[citation needed]

That approach looked utterly normal to me. Checking my database I get 149 hits, to 45 for r10 and 11 for r9. Black did win a little over 50% with approach and a little under with the wedges, but even if it is a mistake (which I don't believe) it's pretty irrelevant unless you and your opponent play the rest of the game at a 13p level.

If White is not happy playing against a large Black moyo, I think the wedge stands out.

Pippen · Post by **Pippen** » Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:49 pm

Uberdude wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:I don't know if it is crucial, but at R-09 or R-10 (wedge) is usual. Also, for I like a double kakari better than the 3-3.

[citation needed]

That approach looked utterly normal to me. Checking my database I get 149 hits, to 45 for r10 and 11 for r9. Black did win a little over 50% with approach and a little under with the wedges, but even if it is a mistake (which I don't believe) it's pretty irrelevant unless you and your opponent play the rest of the game at a 13p level. I do like double kakari though seeing as black played a loose pincer.

As for crucial mistakes as in replaying the game I fall out my chair without even having to think "what's a better move":

48 q2. Giving up the 2 stones is so huge and makes your ko threat tiny.
54 f18. You let him win the ko in sente. Too humilating. If you wanted to play here if he won the ko, you shouldn't have started the ko (and could instead have attacked e12 group with cap).
56 c13. Eww, so crude
64 d2: What are you doing? I thought the point of the crude c13 cut was to attack black and save your k10 stone, but then you just decided to give black 30 points in the centre with his weak group? (well they aren't points yet, but once he gets the first move he's attacking you rather than vice versa).

thx, überdude (and others who tried to help). It's interesting and helped me to see that I lost the game not at the beginning as I thought.

I usually avoid a double kakari in a double wing scenario like almost all pro's do (checked it on MasterGo). Because if you double kakari black will play at 3-3 and set up a strong fighting position where black has the advantage.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:31 pm

Pippen wrote:
I usually avoid a double kakari in a double wing scenario like almost all pro's do (checked it on MasterGo). Because if you double kakari black will play at 3-3 and set up a strong fighting position where black has the advantage.

That is true if he plays a tight pincer, but not a loose one:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc White 1 lots of space, fight is fine for white $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . 3 . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc White 1 cramped, hard fight $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . 3 . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

(And I checked GoGoD and double approach is slightly more popular than 3-3 in this quadrant for loose pincer; with tight pincer 3-3 is 10-times as popular).

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:16 pm

Bill Spight wrote:
Uberdude wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:I don't know if it is crucial, but at R-09 or R-10 (wedge) is usual. Also, for I like a double kakari better than the 3-3.

[citation needed]

That approach looked utterly normal to me. Checking my database I get 149 hits, to 45 for r10 and 11 for r9. Black did win a little over 50% with approach and a little under with the wedges, but even if it is a mistake (which I don't believe) it's pretty irrelevant unless you and your opponent play the rest of the game at a 13p level.

If White is not happy playing against a large Black moyo, I think the wedge stands out.

Regardless of frequency of play among pros, R6 at move 8 - approaching black's strength early - seems to be a clear statement by white that he is wllling to take the corner in return for allowing the beginnings of a black moyo. I would not call this a 'crucial mistake', but I would call it a crucial choice. The wedge at this point would have produced a game apparently more in line with white's prefered style.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:23 pm

Move 20 seems theoretically adequate, but again not in line with white's preferred style. Q11 might be fun here, or maybe P10.

The closest thing that I can find to a mistake is move 22. With N5, black has delared his intention to create a moyo. Playing 22 at K16 allows N15 in sente, which fits too well with black's plans.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:25 pm

What is white's preferred style?

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:28 pm

Uberdude wrote:What is white's preferred style?

Not playing against a moyo.

The OP says that he didn't like the result of black's moyo. So I point out moves that led him down that path.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:48 pm

Oh right. Wedges rather than approaches will tend to avoid moyos more. Looking at the game again, I wonder about playing honte at n3 in answer to black's knight's move. It might seem a bit slow, but it is very big reverse sente and has lots of nice followups. If you play thick shapes like this it's a lot easier to invade/reduce later. With the loose pincer black owes a move at q6. If he doesn't defend here you can later put your initial approach stone in motion with s6 (as with all 4-4 pincer joseki). n5 for n3 then becomes a bad exchange as black has lost o4 being sente so the fighting is harder for him. In fact rather than n5 I think it might be better for black to push along at o4. This way would be gote, but then black gets a thick wall and can reasonably fight much harder on the right side.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Honte and followups. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O d . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . b 1 . . . X X . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . X . e . . . . 2 O . O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Another idea: if you play k16 at l16 it's harder for black to get the free sente move to help grow his moyo.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:11 pm

Uberdude wrote:Looking at the game again, I wonder about playing honte at n3 in answer to black's knight's move.

I like it myself. But I would not be in that situation.

Another idea: if you play k16 at l16 it's harder for black to get the free sente move to help grow his moyo.

Or at N-14.

Pippen · Post by **Pippen** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:31 am

Yeah, move 22 at K16 gives black the option to create a moyo in sente. My alternatives:

1. O16...high kakari aviods black moyo better because of center influence
2. N14...loose move, almost in zen-style, but effective to decline black an easy moyo

I don not like L16 too much, because it seems to me black could still pressure down white in sente to create a big moyo.

Life In 19x19

Where is the crucial mistake...1k vs. 1k?

Where is the crucial mistake...1k vs. 1k?

Re: Where is the crucial mistake...1k vs. 1k?

Re: Where is the crucial mistake...1k vs. 1k?

Re: Where is the crucial mistake...1k vs. 1k?

Re: Where is the crucial mistake...1k vs. 1k?

Re: Where is the crucial mistake...1k vs. 1k?

Re: Where is the crucial mistake...1k vs. 1k?

Re: Where is the crucial mistake...1k vs. 1k?

Re: Where is the crucial mistake...1k vs. 1k?

Re: Where is the crucial mistake...1k vs. 1k?

Re: Where is the crucial mistake...1k vs. 1k?

Re: Where is the crucial mistake...1k vs. 1k?

Re: Where is the crucial mistake...1k vs. 1k?

Re: Where is the crucial mistake...1k vs. 1k?

Re: Where is the crucial mistake...1k vs. 1k?