Depression and go

[Bonobo]

Very interesting topic, thank you!

I have to admit that I’ve only read the opening post and I currently don’t have the time to read all comments but will do later.

Clinical Depression—I’ve been in therapy with this diagnosis for over two years now (and I’m thankful that I still can carry on since health insurance pays for it!), and my long unemployment after I had to quit my last job for health reasons really didn’t make my situation better.

My “condition” has greatly improved since I began playing Go intensively in last August, after a hiatus of almost twenty years. Even better, now I’m beginning a Go Workshop in the local school (voluntary work, I don’t get paid for it), and this really gives me a boost in energy and joy of life. There’s nothing better than positive feedback for taking back my life in my own hands.

Also, I have a nebulous feeling that I’m making “psycho-social” progress simultaneously to my progress in Go … transferring wisdoms of Go proverbs into Real Life, etc., which is really thrilling.

So much for now, need to sleep, early tomorrow morning I have four more classes to hook on the Go Workshop, all in all it’s twelve classes of age 11–17 which I’m giving some sensory overload with regard to Go, eight are already done, the Go Workshop begins on May 16, I am curious … and for me, curiosity is a good drug against depression.


Greetings,

Tom in Germany

[FluffM]

I'm so glad I stumbled on this topic! If you all will indulge me, I'd like to relate my story since Go and depression are so intertwined, in an unexpected way:

Last fall (late September, early October), I was struck with a serious depression that forced me to take a leave of absence for a full year from my grad school program. This was serious business and I was an utter mess! Sitting around, lying in bed, being depressed and unable to move or clothe or feed or bathe myself I found two and only two escapes: watching reruns of The Office and Go. I had played a little bit of Go prior to last fall but I never took it seriously. With a depressed mind, I was unable to focus enough to read a book, it wasn't engaging enough. And anything less engaging, like watching a movie, just let my mind ramble on and dig itself deeper into its hole.

So, go. I played some go and found that it was the only thing I could do to stay somewhat okay while riding out the storm of depression. It grabbed my mind and trained it on small, digestible problems in manageable chunks of, say, 40 minutes at a time. Since I was playing so damn much (on average 5-6 games a day at all hours, probably), I actually progressed pretty steadily. I started off at about 16k (since I was already familiar with the game) and at about one kyu per month I moved up to 8k. This linear, straightforward and (seemingly) dependable progress also helped me get a grip on reality in some sense.

Of course, now I play less but I need it less. I'm seeing doctors and have found a medication that seems to work. In some perverse way I miss the old depressed days of nonstop go (and faster progress!)........ no, wait, no I don't. I like having a life! But seriously folks, although Homer may disagree, go is like alcohol--the cause of and solution to all of life's problems.

[SCWillson]

I think there are two aspects of Go that could easily relate to depression.
1. People who play go entirely on the internet.
2. (For some people) Spending a huge amount of time with Go, and regretting it later.

For #1, I think this is pretty straightforward. Go is a game, and games include a social element. This social element while not impossible is difficult to replicate on the internet.

Also, I remember years ago when I visited Japan for the first time and played at a number of local Go clubs. It was difficult to play with the members of the club for any long period of time since we could not communicate.

I had a completely different experience when I returned a few years later with enough Japanese to communicate with ease. The social experience is a huge part of Go.

For #2, I can still remember a story told by an older man at our local go club. He loved Go and was at our club many times per week. He claimed that he really felt alive when he was playing and around Go players. He would often tell the same stories - one was of a time when he was supposed to pick up the president of some company at the airport and happened upon two people battling it out in the airport lobby. He quickly became caught up in the game and ended up arriving late to pick up the arriving CEO. It caused him some professional damage and often joked about how stupid the whole thing was and how he wasted so much of his life sitting in front of a board covered with black and white pieces.

Which brings us to a tangent in the conversation.
Most of us believe that time spent practicing and playing Go is time well spent.
How do you feel about the fact there are a large number of people out there who don't respect time spent on mental pursuits like Go? There is a depressingly large number of people in this world (American, European, Japanese...) who believe that Go is just a game and that time spent studying it would be better spent doing something else.

The brain is a muscle that needs to be exercised like any other. People who don't use their brains are literally letting themselves become stupider.

As to depression and Go and as someone who became almost suicidally depressed after the death of my mother in 2008 (I was under both anti-depressants and psychological counseling for a year; plus I got rid of my guns), I can only say that something like Go that I could have played to take my mind off things might have helped a lot. I love to read, but reading allows too much time for thoughts to wander. Playing Go or some similar activity with another person, even online, might have helped a lot.

[mogosoup]

But as a counter point as someone who suffers from depression and plays go, one of the things I love about the game is the social interaction that surrounds it. Anecdotal but if I wanted to avoid human contact I'd go back to playing Civilisation obsessively or something.

HaHa I wish all my classmates would stop playing that and play go instead.

[Loons]

I have some random and perhaps grim trivia.

I would have guessed go players might be less likely to be depressed, because we're disproportionately male.

Pronounced suicide rates make sense with a lot of notable go enthusiasts being aging men.

Playing badly (or such) causing depression sounds fatuous to me and probably makes me more annoyed than it should. I'd bet that being especially depressed makes you likely to eg. lose badly, not that losing badly causes the depression. I really hate fake medicine book peddlers who feed on correlation/causality confusion (amoung lies).

Losing interest in hobbies is a sign of depression.


In go? I don't recall any awesome tips. Maybe humility?
In life in general? Arrow citalopram and regular exercise.

[Boidhre]

Playing badly (or such) causing depression sounds fatuous to me and probably makes me more annoyed than it should. I'd bet that being especially depressed makes you likely to eg. lose badly, not that losing badly causes the depression. I really hate fake medicine book peddlers who feed on correlation/causality confusion (amoung lies).

Both true and partly true.

True in that, for example, when I'm depressed I play a lot worse and when I'm in good form I take losing as part of the game and don't get overly bothered beyond an "Awh, crap!" kind of reaction.

Partly true in that according to some theories of depression, people who suffer from depression have problems in the way they perceive events and react to the world, i.e. the cognitive theory of depression. So one could say that it isn't losing but a depressed person's inability to deal with losing well that can cause depression in some individuals (I'm not one of these). But I've found that this only really affects me when I'm depressed, so when I'm low like I am at the moment, every loss is simply another piece of proof as to why I should quit this game which makes me play worse, which makes me lose more which causes more of this thinking, which makes me more likely to quit and so on. The thing is, once you begin to be able to recognise these thoughts for what they are you can start clawing your way back up. Though it takes a while, even when you're used to it, to cop on to your mind doing this to you.

So, um, I do something go related that I can do pretty easily, like solve basic tsumego that I can use as evidence against the above thinking. I usually solve stuff that'd have given me trouble when I started out to show myself that I've improved etc.

Also: extreme levels of aggreement about the fake medicine book peddlers and causality. If one more person recommends homeopathy to me as an option for this...

[Boidhre]

Struggling a bit with this at the moment as I mentioned in my Journal on here. I need to get rid of a lot of the negative thinking built up during the depressive spell. One can think of it as a kind of hangover. It's tough but I think one just has to get back on the horse and start playing regularly again. I've been avoiding playing on KGS and coming up with all kinds of excuses but really it's because I expect to suck if I play real time go. This isn't a healthy mindset and I need to do something about it.

[SCWillson]

Have you tried playing against bots or a decent Go software program to hone up your skills a bit before jumping back into KGS? Or perhaps trying a smaller and less overwhelming online venue than KGS, such as Go Shrine? (That's where I play almost all my online games against people; if I'm going to play software I prefer to just play against MFG12 or GnuGo on my laptop.)

[Boidhre]

Have you tried playing against bots or a decent Go software program to hone up your skills a bit before jumping back into KGS? Or perhaps trying a smaller and less overwhelming online venue than KGS, such as Go Shrine? (That's where I play almost all my online games against people; if I'm going to play software I prefer to just play against MFG12 or GnuGo on my laptop.)

No, I worry that if I start doing that it'll become "just one more game" every day before I go back to KGS.

[Kirby]

In go, it's easier to see your inadequacy. Online servers, for example, give ranks that remind you every day just how bad you are. This can be depressing (unless you are 9d).

In other parts of life, sometimes, you can pretend you don't suck, and maybe believe yourself.

Still, I agree with the idea that go is not the cause of depression. It's probably just one area where it's easy to see itself manifested.

[Boidhre]

In go, it's easier to see your inadequacy. Online servers, for example, give ranks that remind you every day just how bad you are. This can be depressing (unless you are 9d).

In other parts of life, sometimes, you can pretend you don't suck, and maybe believe yourself.

Still, I agree with the idea that go is not the cause of depression. It's probably just one area where it's easy to see itself manifested.

I've been having a come down over the past few days after the high of the tournament (perfectly normal for someone with bipolar unfortunately) and it's given me some new insights into the above. One shouldn't look at it in terms of go making it easier to see your inadequacies but go making it easier to spot when you're being negative because it's an area where your thoughts can become very self-critical quite easily. When I get low, the board makes less sense than usual, every unsettled group looks dead already, every tight game looks like a lost one, having an aversion to live play because you expect inevitable defeat etc. Watching for this kind of thinking is helping me spot faster when I'm going into a depression and helping me take action sooner. Now I'm not saying that thinking negatively about go means you're depressed, I'm saying if you already know you're prone to depression then go can help you spot negative thinking patterns faster which is important for anyone who suffers from depression as these can be preludes to or the early stages of a depressive episode. This applies across your life and working out what the early signs are for you is a very important step in learning to manage and live with depression. I'm just speaking about go as this is a go forum but the point is far broader.

Anyway, I hope some other people suffering from bipolar or depression or anxiety find these musing interesting.

[SCWillson]

While it is critically important for depressed people to do everything they can within their own power to combat this condition, professional care is important as well. I was on anti-depressants for over a year and saw a therapist for over six months.

[Boidhre]

While it is critically important for depressed people to do everything they can within their own power to combat this condition, professional care is important as well. I was on anti-depressants for over a year and saw a therapist for over six months.

Agreed wholeheartedly.

[bakekoq]

wah. I got a depression when I play with a sandbagger who destroy enemy cruelly. but,after I play with Korean pro he also always play as trying to kill all of my stones. so I learned that my go is need improving. and the battle on the board is between life and death. even in shideogo (teaching game), my teacher (korean pro) will always try to kill me. it help me to read for deffending some territory.

don't got depressed too long. U need the reason why do you play go. I'm playing go for having fun coz go is fun, more fun than any other board game that I knonw. so,grin ur teeth and fight back on the board.

if after ur review u find that u made a lot of mistakes, don't worry about that. one u need from a game is learning. u need to learn ur mistakes so u don't make the same mistakes in the future. even a pro player can make some mistakes too. so,fighting..

[Boidhre]

Something interesting I came across:

A MBCT theory of depression (Mindfulness Based Cognitive Therapy):

When our mood goes low, for whatever reason, our minds start conjouring thoughts based on this internal context. Similar to old memories reawakened upon visiting a place from your childhood, when we go into low or high moods our minds bring forth thoughts and memories that match these contexts. The important thing to know is that the body and mind does not automatically distinguish between things that are actually happening and things that are being remembered. So if I remember something extremely stressful and start thinking actively about it, my body reacts as if it was happening right now. One of the key behavioural changes when we go into a low mood is aversion (the opposite is the problem when in a high mood). We avoid things that we think will cause us to feel bad. So for instance, socially we might not go out to meet people because our depressed mind is convinced things will go badly and you'll get mocked/ridiculed/rejected/attacked/whatever. Conversely in a high mood we go out socially even when it's a bad idea because we're convinced it'll be great.

The same kind of aversion (and enthusasism) will be present with go, or any other hobby or interest.

Now what's interesting is that this aversion functions like a feedback loop reinforcing and deepening the mood issue. By not doing things because we think they'll make us feel worse we making things worse for definite. By avoiding things, be they go, socialising, friends, nice treats for ourselves or whatever, we are reinforcing the depression we're trying to avoid in the first place. The behavioural changes, be whatever they are, caused by the initial low mood are as problematic as the low mood itself. Now all of this is a lot easier said than done. When I'm high I just want to socialise like mad and have all this energy and drive to plan out my day's activities in stupid levels of detail (go is just one aspect of this), when I'm low the idea of socialising or playing go or anything like that fills me with dread. But knowing is half the battle, so this gives me some hope going forward.

The Mindfulness part is learning to accept, non-judgmentally, the negative feelings and learning not to fight them. Just feel them, experience them, and let them pass in their own time. It's perfectly ok and normal to feel bad after a blunder, a fight with a friend or whatever, what's bad are the thoughts and behaviours that follow these feelings. Meditation can break this automatic link and help us stop ourselves from going from stimulus to action immediately and allow us a break from the rumination.

Anyway, sorry, I found this interesting.