#171 Hyperpape vs. illluck

jts · Post by **jts** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:23 pm

hyperpape · Post by **hyperpape** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:23 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If Black pincers, then things are straightforward for awhile.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 . X . 1 . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . b . X . . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If a, then Black is has a wider gap at b than he might like. Perhaps that's why I haven't seen :b3:

in the database.

illluck · Post by **illluck** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:47 pm

This is somewhat weird and I hope Hyperpape doesn't mind (if you do, please let me know):

I have a few alternatives that I think are interesting for my next move, would it be possible to ask for a vote (that ends in, say, a day)? If there is a tie (or no responses) I will pick one.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm11 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 0 a . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

"a": plan to double hane if white plays hane. "Dayaliang" - ancient Chinese joseki (mostly for 3 stone games).
"b": drooping lotus, also ancient Chinese joseki.
"c": plan jump up from pincer stone if white jumps up. "Jinjinglan" - another ancient Chinese joseki.
"d": the typical 4 space low pincer commonly seen in ancient Chinese games :p

Note that I have never studied them in detail (and only used "b" a few times in games), so it should be pretty interesting/hilarious to watch any of them.

hyperpape · Post by **hyperpape** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:37 pm

I don't mind, but do I get a vote?

konfuzed · Post by **konfuzed** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:39 pm

You're right, those are interesting! My vote:

illluck · Post by **illluck** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:31 pm

hyperpape wrote:I don't mind, but do I get a vote?

Sure

Though, I think I should remove C because it's very dependent on a choice for white (and I think sansan probably better than jump up for white).

hyperpape · Post by **hyperpape** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:33 pm

Eh, I didn't look, it was just a joke.

illluck · Post by **illluck** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:36 pm

I know, but it's OK to if you are interested as I don't think the choices will affect the game (you'll see the final decision anyways, and other moves don't reveal anything about strategy because they are just interesting possibility not related to each other)

jts · Post by **jts** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:50 pm

Redundant · Post by **Redundant** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:38 pm

jts wrote:
These all seem fascinating, but are any of them played by pros in modern times?

Celebrir · Post by **Celebrir** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:07 am

I would choose 'd'. I won't discuss this decision now because I don't want to make it easy for illuck if he picks one in the case of a tie

illluck · Post by **illluck** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:29 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm11 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:39 pm

No point hiding this I suppose...

I was a bit surprised to see the most normal (and simple) move not suggested, at e. With a, the normal continuation is the cash-grabbing block. There's some coverage of this and other choices in this lower side shape after the approach in chapter 10 of "A Dictionary of Modern Fuseki: The Korean Style".

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . e . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

illluck · Post by **illluck** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:45 pm

@Uber, yeah, I wanted to try some less common responses :p The common joseki makes me want to yawn :p

hyperpape · Post by **hyperpape** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:19 pm

A whole lot of thinking, not much to show for it. Two things I probably won't play.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I can't say why, but nothing about this appeals to me.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . X . . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think I'd rather just double approach first. Playing the :w1:

-

exchange just hurts White's chances here, I think. Either of the standard jump into the corner and blocking josekis seem locally worse for Black, and white can always come back for ;w1: if desired.

Diagrams suck, and you people with your hide tags are driving me mad!

Life In 19x19

#171 Hyperpape vs. illluck

Re: #171 Hyperpape vs. illluck

Re: #171 Hyperpape vs. illluck

Re: #171 Hyperpape vs. illluck

Re: #171 Hyperpape vs. illluck

Re: #171 Hyperpape vs. illluck

Re: #171 Hyperpape vs. illluck

Re: #171 Hyperpape vs. illluck

Re: #171 Hyperpape vs. illluck

Re: #171 Hyperpape vs. illluck

Re: #171 Hyperpape vs. illluck

Re: #171 Hyperpape vs. illluck

Re: #171 Hyperpape vs. illluck

Re: #171 Hyperpape vs. illluck

Re: #171 Hyperpape vs. illluck

Re: #171 Hyperpape vs. illluck