Positive Discrimination in Go

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Re: Positive Discrimination in Go

Post by Javaness2 »

kivi wrote:
Javaness2 wrote:Some, but by no means all, national go organisations. I missed out the word some in my first post

I read it as "some" in the first place. But I am not aware of any, so I want to ask which go organizations banned Women's championships?


Maybe ban is too strong, but certainly the UK abolished their national women's championship.
'There is no British Women’s Championship as the BGA believes that men and women should play Go on an equal footing.' is in the championship rules.

There is no corresponding statement in the policy pages, I had wrongly thought that there was, and they are sending a women's team to the World Mind Sport Games. :)
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Re: Positive Discrimination in Go

Post by SpongeBob »

My wife says: Go is against female nature, because:
- it is about killing and dying
- it is about playing against each other and not with each other
- there is not much happening, you are just sitting around
- females would rather be talking to their friends
- females do not have/do not take the time for playing such a time consuming hobby

(And as those of you who are married already know: the wife is always right. ;-) )

But I think there is still hope: some years ago nobody would have thought that so many women would be watching soccer!
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Re: Positive Discrimination in Go

Post by Javaness2 »

I've attached a picture from a British Go Journal to illustrate tapir's post

tapir wrote:Short of positive discrimination it would be a tremendous help already, if some people would keep their mouth shut, as exemplified by tchan and Joaz in this thread. Why this sudden urge to blurt out immature, male bonding, alcohol centered posts as soon as the topic of women in Go comes up?

Likely many players are perfectly comfortable with Go still being a predominantly male pastime and would see any change as a threat. Happily demographics can change despite that.
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Re: Positive Discrimination in Go

Post by Bonobo »

Very interesting …
SpongeBob wrote:My wife says: Go is against female nature, because:
- it is about killing and dying
I’d probably reply, “Uhm, yes, sort of: It’s about life and death. It’s also about finding out how to do the right thing.”

- it is about playing against each other and not with each other
“I play with my game partner and against their colour. And the game’s a lot about supporting my folks, my stones, and strengthening the weak, and enabling my, uhm, place, my space, my people to live.“

- there is not much happening, you are just sitting around
<sigh> (Thinks “Yeah, but better than Solitaire.”

- females would rather be talking to their friends
<shrug> “We often talk while playing!”

- females do not have/do not take the time for playing such a time consuming hobby
“Mh.”

[..]
My last reply, though, would be that the majority of Go players I personally know (and play) IRL are women, so these male vs. female generalizations might have to be revised.


All that said, sighed, shrugged and grunted, I admit to you that I’m not married and never have been. (Don’t—I’ve already heard every possible ironic reply to this ;-))
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Re: Positive Discrimination in Go

Post by nagano »

xed_over wrote:
nagano wrote: This means that those that do play are much more likely to be programmers/geeks/intellectuals, and this may contribute to a less inviting atmosphere to some.

In Europe, board games seem to be more of a social event, and are thus more likely to involve both genders.

I'm a programmer/geek myself, and perhaps a bit socially awkward, but I actually prefer to the social side to the game.

I don't play online -- too cold, not easily social
I don't play in tournaments -- too quiet, serious, and competitive

I enjoy teaching beginners. I like to talk during games, to take back moves (usually my opponent's bad moves :) ) and explore other options and not just wait until the end and then try to replay the game and review in excruciating detail of each and every possible variation. I'd much rather laugh and talk and explore a few immediate learning opportunities during the game.

As the proverb says, "play go to make friends"

I'll never be a pro player, and I may never even reach dan level. I enjoy my current level, its good enough for now. I enjoy a good game with friends.
Right. I'm not saying that American clubs aren't social, or criticizing anyone's preferences, but comparing the public image of the game. In Europe, these things often start at home with friends and family. The Polgar sisters learned from their father, as did Diana Koszegi I believe. I think this is much less true of the US, and that the level of women's involvement is lower because of the less inviting (to some) image.
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Re: Positive Discrimination in Go

Post by badukJr »

tchan001 wrote:Ladies night at the go center with drinks provided. lol


Seriously, this is horrible. Ladies night at bars is put on to attract more males as they know that there will be many inebriated women there compared to other times.
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Re: Positive Discrimination in Go

Post by tchan001 »

Is a go center the same as a bar? Do they share the same objectives?

If you went to a church and saw a sign which said they were having a Ladies Night Out meeting with drinks provided, would you automatically assume that the church is trying to get the ladies drunk?
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JUNE 8th
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladies%27_ ... mbiguation)

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I would think Javaness2's attachment to illustrate tapir's post is showing a very explicit way of attracting more go members and such a way is a really bad precedent to show on L19. It's surely turning the thread into something which L19 should not cross into. Would Javaness2 be happy if someone posts something which further illustrates his post in greater detail and gets banned for it?

-------------

Javaness2 started the thread about "positive discrimination in go", which by itself is talking about gender discrimination. If a go center has a series of events where they invite pros to only lecture female members or prospective female members, is that really fair to the rest of the membership who are excluded because of their gender?

Would Javaness2 dare suggest to wms to provide KGS+ lectures freely to female members so KGS would become a driving force in promoting more females to play go?
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Re: Positive Discrimination in Go

Post by cata »

EDIT: Nevermind, don't even want to get involved in this thread.
Last edited by cata on Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Positive Discrimination in Go

Post by daal »

Javaness2 wrote:A long time ago now, I believe I asked how to increase the number of women playing Go. Somebody responded with something like: "well why do we want more women playing, why not more gays or blacks".
This is a reasonable question to pose.


But is it a hard question?

Joaz pointed out that it's not a matter of women not having the opportunity, and that if we want more women to play because we think it's good for them, then that's a rather patronizing attitude. Although social conditions could be preventing women from enjoying something great which might justify a certain amount of reverse discrimination, I generally agree with Joaz. More women aren't playing go because more women don't want to. But back to the question. If our goal isn't to increase women's opportunities, and it isn't to make them better people, why do we care if only a few women want to play go?

It seems that what we're left with is that we (or those who do) specifically want more women go players (as opposed to just more players) because we (or they) think that that would be nice for us guys. Go is something that most of us do in our free time, and wouldn't it be practical if it also helped fulfill some other social needs? If this is the case, I think we should own up to it, admit that we don't know how we're going to meet any ladies if they're never at the place where we spend most of our free time. If this isn't the case, and loftier reasons predominate, then please elaborate! Otherwise, why not be honest and say that we like to be around women, that we particularly like to be around women who play go, and that we especially like to be around women who like guys that play go and more of any of the above would be a step in the right direction.

So, what's to be done? While any effort to make go more popular will increase the number of women who know about go, who play go, and who appreciate how truly cool go players are, but if we specifically want more women to play, we need to ask: what's in it for them? As BobC suggests, many women would prefer to chat with friends than to sit around with a bunch of silent, brooding men. But go is by and large a non-verbal pastime. We might be a chatty bunch of guys, but not when we're in the middle of a game.

It would be fair at this point to accuse me of stereotyping women as people who tend to prefer their cerebral pleasures in verbal form, but when addressing a general question such as how to get more women to play go, such generalizations can be useful. In this case, they indicate that there is a disparity that needs to be bridged, between time spent talking and time spent playing go. I personally doubt that this is a bridge many of us feel the need to cross. If women want to cross it, I'm sure they'll say so.

When we watch a movie, we are by and large silent, but afterwards we have something to talk about and everybody's happy. Go is different. After a game, interest tends to range between playing or watching another game and destroying furniture. Talking is pretty far down on the list. What I'm saying is that this seems to be a case of wanting to have one's cake and eat it too. If we want to spend more time with women, maybe we should take up some other hobbies.

That said, women tend to look favorably upon men spending time with children, so offering more children's activities might be a roundabout way of getting more women involved.
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Time factor for women in go or games in general

Post by eoi »

It's pretty clear that women in general have less time than men, because they are the ones who mostly take care of children and the house, along with working outside the home. So maybe women do 2/3 of the world's work? Anyway, that won't change until men take their fair share of the childcare/housework burden, which frankly I doubt will happen soon. People in power never give it up voluntarily.
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Re: Positive Discrimination in Go

Post by Martha »

Personally I dislike the idea of any kind of positive discrimination. Yes, we have youth prizes, but surely that's in part because youth players are at a disadvantage. We wouldn't ever expect that a 7-year-old, whose brain would still be developing, could beat the strongest adult players (although I'm well-aware that there are plenty who could destroy me!) Even a 17-year-old is presumably at a disadvantage - it's much harder to attend most local clubs, and harder to go off to tournaments at will as well. Equally, 'veterans' are unlikely to be able to compete on the same terms as young adults. In the case of females there's no in-built disadvantage (arguably? I did have an ex-boyfriend who argued that males are biologically more inclined to become strong go players: male brains are more suited to devoting themselves obsessively to one task, since from an evolutionary point of view, it's more important for males to excel in order to mate. We'd have to know a lot more about the human brain to judge the fairness of that, I suspect.)

I agree with the BGA, then, that we shouldn't have separate women's championships. (I was joking that if Scotland becomes independent I could declare myself women's champion, as (I believe) the only Scottish female who regularly attends tournaments. But it would be a rather empty victory!) I don't really see the point in the separate men's and women's categories at the WMSG either - I suspect it's because they're modelled on the Olympics, but for physical events there's a much more obvious justification. And theoretically I dislike the enforced male/female aspect of pair go (although I must admit than in practice I do enjoy being able to be part of a relatively strong pair go team, solely due to the shortage of females). I tend to feel that people will play go first and foremost because they enjoy it and find it interesting, not because there's a chance to become Women's Champion or whatever.

I'm also never convinced by the argument about off-putting clubs filled with socially incompetent men who enter blind panics when they see a female. I've never felt uncomfortable at go clubs or tournaments because of my gender. I attended a French club for a year where I was not only the only female, but also thirty years younger than the vast majority of the other members - it was the warmest and friendliest club I've ever been to. I think my best friend, who is also used to being the only female at club meetings, would say the same. Perhaps we're just exceptional? Sadly I've never had the chance to question any of those female beginners who came along to our club once and never returned...

But surely this is a broader socio-cultural issue, rather than one specifically related to go. There are more male computer scientists, mathematicians, video gamers. Our local board game club is dominated by males. An interest in board games or computer science seems to be the most common path for discovering go in the first place. (I was taught by a male computer scientist myself.) Men are more commonly found involved in logical, technical pursuits, whereas women are more dominant in the arts (at least at universities these days). I've no idea to what extent that's a nature or nurture thing, but I can't imagine any amount of positive discrimination achieving very much while this remains the norm.

It occurs to me that all I'm really saying is 'I don't think we can do much', which I realise isn't a very constructive response ... but there it is...!
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Re: Positive Discrimination in Go

Post by jts »

Paternalism is about paters forcing their children to do things that they don't necessarily want to do, on the grounds that it will benefit them whether they know it or not, or that they'll grow to love it, or something similar. In a loose sense, it applies to anyone forcing anyone else to do anything, for their own good. If we passed a law forcing women to play go and frog-marched them to the goban, that would be paternalism. If we make go attractive in other ways in an attempt to inveigle female participation, our motives may involve some quiet echo of paternalism (because we think some of the people who try go will enjoy it much more than they had imagined possible), but the tearing down of gender barriers has absolutely nothing to do with paternalism either in the direct or the metaphorical sense.
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Re: Positive Discrimination in Go

Post by Javaness2 »

What I was trying to show was a 'joke for men' , of the sort of 'beer swilling' variety. I thought it was quite relevant to the topic myself, and illustrated well what Tapir was talking about.

I am not sure how we could prove somebody was a woman on KGS, since it would involve an identity check. So I could only answer that in a rhetorical sense. Yes, I would be happy for events like that to take place on the server. There are already youth leagues, a LBGT room, school rooms, etc.

tchan001 wrote:
I would think Javaness2's attachment to illustrate tapir's post is showing a very explicit way of attracting more go members and such a way is a really bad precedent to show on L19. It's surely turning the thread into something which L19 should not cross into. Would Javaness2 be happy if someone posts something which further illustrates his post in greater detail and gets banned for it?

-------------

Javaness2 started the thread about "positive discrimination in go", which by itself is talking about gender discrimination. If a go center has a series of events where they invite pros to only lecture female members or prospective female members, is that really fair to the rest of the membership who are excluded because of their gender?

Would Javaness2 dare suggest to wms to provide KGS+ lectures freely to female members so KGS would become a driving force in promoting more females to play go?
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Re: Positive Discrimination in Go

Post by Javaness2 »

I think this might be a 'self selecting pool' :) Personally I have met people who felt the opposite, but I can't say I've done an extensive survey on the matter.

Martha wrote:I'm also never convinced by the argument about off-putting clubs filled with socially incompetent men who enter blind panics when they see a female. I've never felt uncomfortable at go clubs or tournaments because of my gender. I attended a French club for a year where I was not only the only female, but also thirty years younger than the vast majority of the other members - it was the warmest and friendliest club I've ever been to. I think my best friend, who is also used to being the only female at club meetings, would say the same. Perhaps we're just exceptional? Sadly I've never had the chance to question any of those female beginners who came along to our club once and never returned...
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Re: Positive Discrimination in Go

Post by tchan001 »

Javaness2 wrote:I've attached a picture from a British Go Journal to illustrate tapir's post

Since Javaness2 attached a picture to illustrate tapir's post, I'd like to attach a picture of a famous movie to illustrate the idea of positive discrimination in similar light. What I am trying to show is a 'joke for women', of the sort of Javaness2's BGA picture variety. I think it is quite relevant to the topic myself, and illustrates well what Javaness2 is talking about.
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