P.S.
Uberdude wrote:@lightvector:
...white's weak centre group might play forcing moves on the outside around q4/r5 in order to cut off black's r9 stones.
Shape problems
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Uberdude
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Re: Shape problems
I was surprised how old the game was, that Chinese opening shape on the left and top is quite modern, though it did arise in a different order. I liked how Go attacked r9 with his weak reduction group and was particularly impressed how he made such a huge left side with just a few thin stones. I think this is the sort of thing Guo Juan refers to when she says Go Seigen overplays a bit: it doesn't seem fair that he got so much but then maybe my feeling of what is a fair result is wrong. If Sakata couldn't find a way to break it then there aren't many who could. Go Seigen really does show you how to use stones to their utmost efficiency!
P.S.
P.S.
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Numsgil
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Re: Shape problems
Rather offtopic, but I find black's play in that game really slow, at least in the opening. Is it just because the komi was different enough 60 years ago that black doesn't mind playing conservatively? For instance, 7 I'd put one stone to the left to encourage white to play the wedge and decimate the top. White's invested more than black for that to be a big area. My main issue with 7 is that the follow up move, 13, puts black in a low position. He's prevented white's development but he's not building on a large scale himself.
17 especially feels really slow. His entire bottom is flat. White's building some impressive structures and black is building small (but stable) groups everywhere that have an awkward time coordinating in a meaningful way.
I realize these are probably more stylistic decisions than hard and fast rules, but I'm curious of other peoples' thoughts. By 20 I'd greatly prefer playing white, even with my normally more territory oriented play style.
17 especially feels really slow. His entire bottom is flat. White's building some impressive structures and black is building small (but stable) groups everywhere that have an awkward time coordinating in a meaningful way.
I realize these are probably more stylistic decisions than hard and fast rules, but I'm curious of other peoples' thoughts. By 20 I'd greatly prefer playing white, even with my normally more territory oriented play style.
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Bill Spight
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Re: Shape problems
A few comments on the opening:
is normal, maybe best.
When I was learning to play,
was one of those moves that showed up in problems, as a big play that is larger than it looks. I never quite bought the argument, but I have made such plays myself. Perhaps pro opinion has changed, I don't know.
The Chinese-style relationship is not all that new. I have even seen the mini-Chinese in a book (not just a game) from the early 19th century, which indicates that it was not uncommon then. (In handicap play, OC. 
) This play in particular may show the influence of Segoe on Go Seigen. It is closer to making territory in the top left than a stone under the star point would be.
was normal, but Numsgil may be right that a higher play would be better.
allows Black to make a double wing with 
. As a play on the frontier of frameworks, it is big. It may show the influence of Dosaku, who performed magic with such plays. 
A very Go Seigen move. His reduction of the bottom right quadrant is marvelous.
After
as Black I would be worried. But may "Shinogi no Sakata" felt just fine.
is normal, maybe best.When I was learning to play,
was one of those moves that showed up in problems, as a big play that is larger than it looks. I never quite bought the argument, but I have made such plays myself. Perhaps pro opinion has changed, I don't know. The Chinese-style relationship is not all that new. I have even seen the mini-Chinese in a book (not just a game) from the early 19th century, which indicates that it was not uncommon then. (In handicap play, OC. ) This play in particular may show the influence of Segoe on Go Seigen. It is closer to making territory in the top left than a stone under the star point would be. was normal, but Numsgil may be right that a higher play would be better. allows Black to make a double wing with . As a play on the frontier of frameworks, it is big. It may show the influence of Dosaku, who performed magic with such plays. A very Go Seigen move. His reduction of the bottom right quadrant is marvelous.After
as Black I would be worried. But may "Shinogi no Sakata" felt just fine. The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Uberdude
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Re: Shape problems
Bill Spight wrote:
Yes, talk about having one's cake and eating it too!
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Bill Spight
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Re: Shape problems
is the last play.The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Uberdude
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Re: Shape problems
This one there is rather more going on (no single super-urgent area I can identify) so it's not clear to me which bit of the board I should be playing in, let alone what the best shape is there! But my first thought before bed is:
Btw, in problem 1 the modern shape I was referring to was move 7 in my imagined order below. (Nevermind it's a bit odd white making a Chinese opening.) According to GoGoD, that approach of 7 against the Chinese side had a single appearance in 1978 (Sakata was white funnily enough), and then burst onto the scene in 2003 and has appeared over 200 times since.
Btw, in problem 1 the modern shape I was referring to was move 7 in my imagined order below. (Nevermind it's a bit odd white making a Chinese opening.) According to GoGoD, that approach of 7 against the Chinese side had a single appearance in 1978 (Sakata was white funnily enough), and then burst onto the scene in 2003 and has appeared over 200 times since.
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Bill Spight
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Re: Shape problems
Uberdude wrote:Btw, in problem 1 the modern shape I was referring to was move 7 in my imagined order below. (Nevermind it's a bit odd white making a Chinese opening.) According to GoGoD, that approach of 7 against the Chinese side had a single appearance in 1978 (Sakata was white funnily enough), and then burst onto the scene in 2003 and has appeared over 200 times since.
The
approach to the Chinese was suggested, as far as I can tell, by Go Seigen in his 21st Century Go writings. It also appears in ancient games, but not vs. the Chinese, OC. It does feel a bit close, so I can see how the two space approach could be attractive.The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Bill Spight
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Re: Shape problems
This is the kind of position that I think Simba (in a related thread) would find useful. Actual shapes are not that many. The real question is when and where to make them.
I guess this is a dan level problem. I think that Sakata made the "only" play, but I could be wrong.
The game:
I guess this is a dan level problem. I think that Sakata made the "only" play, but I could be wrong.
makes the table shape. After 
responds on the top side, Black attacks on the right side. OC, Black's central strength supports this attack. The game:
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Uberdude
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Uberdude
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Re: Shape problems
Interesting that the 2 other suggestions were k14. I never even considered that move. I thought this was one of those problems where labelling the last move is a bit of a trick as the answer isn't local. But it is quite a sharp idea. Should I feel bad to not such a sharp idea, or good that my feeling for the game was that tenuki was correct and that k14 is presumably an overplay due to white resources such as below?
It's interesting to note that white played k16 rather than the j17 I feared, presumably because now black defended at m9 the k14 aji is more of a problem.
But what really impresses me is q11. After building the central strength this move suddenly makes q8 look almost dead, whereas before the q6 group looked like a weak pincered group. If I had read a bit further from my imagined m9 j17 m13 (I stopped there, wasn't obvious what white would do) to see q11 and how this massive tilts the balance of power/territory on the right side I would much more readily sacrifice k17 for now.
It's interesting to note that white played k16 rather than the j17 I feared, presumably because now black defended at m9 the k14 aji is more of a problem.
But what really impresses me is q11. After building the central strength this move suddenly makes q8 look almost dead, whereas before the q6 group looked like a weak pincered group. If I had read a bit further from my imagined m9 j17 m13 (I stopped there, wasn't obvious what white would do) to see q11 and how this massive tilts the balance of power/territory on the right side I would much more readily sacrifice k17 for now.
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cyclops
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Re: Shape problems
Before looking at the answer my guts chose M9. It weakens the groups below and above. It threatens to invade the right or to reduce the bottom while making profit. It seemed to me that I watched this position quite recently but that is rather improbable because I never watched this game.
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Bill Spight
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Re: Shape problems
Shape problem #3
Black has just played
.
Enjoy!
----
Edited the player to play in the diagram. (It is invisible.) Also added coordinates.
Black has just played
.Enjoy!
----
Edited the player to play in the diagram. (It is invisible.) Also added coordinates.
Last edited by Bill Spight on Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:10 am, edited 3 times in total.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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emeraldemon
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