How Deep does The Rabbit Hole Go?

[Solomon]

Indeed, my attitude towards Go was very different when I was DDK/SDK versus today. Back then I hated my rank passionately and every time I lost (or even won, by luck) a game, I would furiously review the game and just curse at myself for playing this or that. I didn't play the game for the enjoyment, I only played it to get better and climb higher up the kyu ladder. I think it's safe to say that overall I had more hate for the game than love. I also think such a vial mentality did in fact help me improve from the DDK level until 5k, where I found myself hitting a hard plateau. Naturally, as a result of my mentality towards the game, I was on the verge of quitting.

Fortunately, right around the point where I was going to give the game up, I went to China to partake in a Go program that my parents not only allowed, but insisted I sign up for (I think they just wanted me to stick with Go rather than go back to play WC3 ). The experience completely changed me as a Go player. It not only changed my perspective on ranks and how petty I was for getting so wound up over it, but also helped me to truly enjoy the game rather than obsess over improving. Of course, the improvement from the training was nice too and the things I learned in China did help me to improve even further when I went back home.

Over the past couple of years I've been, once again, stuck. So I wonder even today...if I didn't go to China and managed to break out of 5k, still having the sort of attitude as I did when I was DDK/SDK , could I could break out once again and improve? Who knows...but for now, instead of thinking about such what-if's, I just blame the time that college sucks away from me . Though, maybe "blame" is a bad word; I think I'll gain more as a human being to just enjoy my time in college and put Go training on the side until I'm done .

[Stable]

At least I understand now that even with advancement there isn't some magical power or knowledge that is imparted.

Psh, I heard that when you get to 1d you get a special hat. I want my hat.

More seriously, to all those who say it's all about enjoyment rather than improvement I do actually enjoy the game more now (at 2kyu-ish) than I used to at 5, 10 or 15k. I enjoy it at a deeper level, because I understand more of what is going on, I can read more of why certain moves are being played when I watch others play and my options seem deeper and more real when I play. I know that I've got a long way to go and a lot more to understand, but I fully expect that at 2d/5d/whatever I will understand and appreciate go still more while still understanding that I have lots more to learn.

It's like music. I'm pretty musical, but my girlfriend is a professional cellist. She knows so much more about classical music than I do and appreciates pieces on a whole different level. She knows that this chord represents the devil in medieval music, or that chord was considered revolutionary when the piece was written. She knows to an intimate degree which techniques are virtuosic, when to me they're all out of reach. It's the same thing. If you understand something, if it's in your body, you can appreciate it much more.



(I think it's similar, but in reverse, to the way people who are terrible at something don't appreciate how bad they are. They just have no concept. And the only way to get them to understand how bad they are is to help them improve. Check out this paper: http://www.apa.org/journals/features/psp7761121.pdf).

[Actorios]

So what will you do once you get to shodan? Just stop playing? Or set yourself another goal, like get to 3d?

And what will you do once you definitely plateau and stop improving? Just stop playing?

Or do you think Go will be more fun when you get to shodan? It won't. It will be the exact same game. Like Alakazam said, you won't feel strong when you're shodan. If anything, you will feel you're weaker. I haven't seen any cocky shodans. I'm only SDK myself but I've heard from many very strong people that ranks up to even KGS 5d are very weak, in the sense of their game being erratic and full of holes. If you feel that right now your game is erratic and stupid - you will still feel that when you're 5d.

Sure, you will know you're stronger than a 5k, but that will only give you as much satisfaction as being stronger than 15k gives you now.

Personally, I have a strength-based goal too. My goal is to play the biggest point.

If I ever get to 1d, I believe I'd just be satisfied with my level of play. I would stop focusing on improving but just enjoy playing to
maintain my practice. Of course, I don't know what would be my mindset in such hypothetical future but the point is that I know I'm not young enough to target much higher goal. That's ok. It would still be something to be proud of. Now, all chances are that I'll get stuck on the way maybe close from my current level : we'll see.
The point is that I don't have expectations in terms of competition results. Oh, I forgot: if I ever get there, my wife promised me a nice floorgoban (she's not taking too much risks, here ).

Anyway, 1d is nothing more than a wish at this stage. My only current goal is to get to 5k by end of year : a more reasonable and hopefully achievable expectation.

[Kirby]

To me, my rank is like a grade I get in school. I try not to think about my final grade, but it is still a concern to me. I have been trying to isolate myself from this, but I still keep thinking about it.

In school, I always wanted to get As. Sometimes I was interested in the subject matter, but above all, what was important was getting an A. Of course it would be better if I really enjoyed the material to an extent where I didn't have to think about the grade at all... But I always did.

This was particularly hard when I had some research projects in school. I'd speak with my advisor about what I had to do. Ideally, I should have fun exploring a particular area and come up with unique observations... But the bottom line to me was always, "what do I have to do to please you?".

Similarly, even at my job, I feel the same way sometimes. I rarely have a real deadline, and I'm often asked when I'll be done with something. Ideally, I should simply enjoy what I'm doing at work, and have the results follow. But, to me, the bottom line is always, "what do you want me to do, and when do you want me to be done with it?".


Yes, I am petty. Yes, it is a weakness I have. But I can't deny that I feel that way about a lot of areas of life. In go, what do I have to do to win? I enjoy the game to some degree, but I enjoy it mostly when I win.

This is probably a flaw with my personality. I'm not sure how to deal with it exactly, though, since it seems engrained in just about everything I do. I try not to pay attention to rank and strength, but if I'm honest, I really do.

[palapiku]

Oh, I forgot: if I ever get there, my wife promised me a nice floorgoban (she's not taking too much risks, here ).

Ohhh well that changes things completely! Forget everything I said and get started on those tsumego!

[bobmcg]

I'm asking a question I believe everybody did ask himself: "which rank can I expect to reach?"
When I started go, I knew it was a tough game but I thought anyone could reach shodan if they really want to.
I don't believe this anymore.
I'm in my mid-thirties, started go 1.5 year ago and reached 6k KGS, a very humble level. I've got no doubt I can make some more progress (and will try to) but even within 4-5 years time, I'm clearly not confident to be able to reach shodan level.

Did someone here started at about my age and managed to reach 1d KGS? Do you know of some people who did?
What are your beliefs / experience regarding age and maximum level reached?

I'm not sure if I fit your pattern. I learned the rules at age 13 but never played. Then at age 38 I started playing, reached AGA 6k after one year, 4k two years after starting, and shodan four years after starting. Current playing strength mid-dan AGA, but I don't play in tournaments or online. People max out at various levels for various reasons. I can think of dedicated players who never got higher than 12k, and no doubt there are many who max out in the SDK range. Here's a link to an SL page which you might find interesting: http://senseis.xmp.net/?RatingHistogramComparisons I'd second the advice of other posters who suggest concentrating on enjoying playing, learning new things and improving your weaknesses without concentrating on your rating/rank. I'll bet if you do that you'll break out of your plateau. Another suggestion: (re)read Kageyama's Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go with an open mind, thinking about your own play. Most plateaus can be broken out of by working on the fundamentals. Good luck!

[Magicwand]

Yes, I am petty. Yes, it is a weakness I have. But I can't deny that I feel that way about a lot of areas of life. In go, what do I have to do to win? I enjoy the game to some degree, but I enjoy it mostly when I win.

This is probably a flaw with my personality. I'm not sure how to deal with it exactly, though, since it seems engrained in just about everything I do. I try not to pay attention to rank and strength, but if I'm honest, I really do.

IMO there arent any professionals or even any strong players who felt ok about losing.
wanting to win is a good side of your character. dont lose them.
go took 20 years of my life and i sometime wonder what i could have done with those lost times.
but i came to a conclusion ....it would've been another game. no regret.
now i dont go to a club anymore and perfectly satisfied with Markovich game with you.

[Bill Spight]

I have made this argument on godisc - I looked back at the 40 odd kyu players at the 2nd Go Congress I knew and know - and half of them are still kyu players.

I have noted similar numbers. I think that it is wonderful that half of them are dan players now.

Interesting (to me anyway ) philosophical question: Would you still found it as wonderful if you knew for a fact that that half of them enjoyed the game less now because of the attitude change they may have required to gain that strength?

Interesting question. First, I don't think that that is what happened. I think that they mostly drifted up, like I did.

But I can relate the question to my brief time as a low level bridge pro. After a time I got quite tense at tournaments. I would grind my teeth in my sleep. At one point I reflected on how much fun I had had playing bridge when I was eight years old. Then I did no planning in the play of the hand, I just played the cards, excitedly waiting to see how the hand would turn out. I got serious about the game at age 13. Part of growing up.

BTW, I do not play bridge anymore.

[daal]

I enjoy the game to some degree, but I enjoy it mostly when I win.

Maybe this is the elusive simple truth. We prefer winning to losing, and that makes us want to improve, and something in our nature ignores the fact that this won't make us win more often.

Perhaps the wish to reach Shodan or some other level represents for some of us a wish to transcend the grueling grind of this fruitlessness, to know that we've earned our place on the tribune and need not continue to defeat the lions and gladiators to get some respect.

While this may be equally illusionary, it seems no less impractical than utter emotional detachment.

[entropi]

But getting stronger will not increase your win/lose ratio. If the ranking system works properly your winning percentage will always be around 50%.

The only reason why I want to get stronger is because I want to enjoy it better. Both the games I play and the games I watch.

There is obviously an "ego" part of it. It feels better to be able to introduce yourself as a black-belt holder. But that should not be the main motivation. If it is, then I would say there is something more to learn from the game.

Besides, I read here in somebodys signature (I don't remember who) that he will kill dan players as soon as he sees one. In that sense it is safer to remain kyu

[palapiku]

I really like the point that we just don't like losing and so try to improve. While you're improving, the win/loss ratio is not actually 50/50 - you do win more than you lose. This is probably a large part of the initial exhilaration of the Go learning curve. But of course the curve eventually flattens out to the point where, even as you're improving, there's no perceptible effect on the win/loss ratio. At this point you have to either accept the fact that you lose 50% of your games and need to run faster just to stay in one place, or take up another game

[Violence]

I just like the feeling of having improved, like leveling up in an RPG. Sure, you fight tougher baddies, but the feeling of accomplishment is there.

[Chew Terr]

I just like the feeling of having improved, like leveling up in an RPG. Sure, you fight tougher baddies, but the feeling of accomplishment is there.

This clinches it. All of you (and everyone on KGS) are officially 'baddies'.

[palapiku]

I heard the final boss is tough.

[Marcus]

I heard the final boss is tough.

Some kind of big bad wolf, right?