World Mind Sport Games 2012

[HermanHiddema]

The definition of "professional" hasn't changed in decades.

There is no official definition. The existence of organisations does not equal exclusive right to set definitions.

Whatever gave you the idea that it had changed now?

Rather you miss the point: Circumstances have changed. Professional organisations are not the holy grail any longer but nowadays there are also other players earning money from playing go and yet others earning money from teaching go.

For a very long time, it has been said that most so called professional players cannot earn their living from playing professionally but need to earn (most of) it by teaching. There is no difference to those a) ex-professional players now living in Western countries and presumably earning part or all of their living from teaching and b) Western players with amateur ranks earning part or all of their living from teaching. The only difference is a status symbol: the rank issued by a guild. Are we still in the Middle Ages? Maybe not - the advantage seems to be NOT to possess the status symbol.

Nothing you mention here has changed in decades. There have always been amateurs earning money from teaching and playing, there have always been professionals struggling to get by. Circumstances have not changed.

You compare the professional system to a guild, I would compare it to a university. Trough examination and ever more strenuous requirements, people earn titles. BSc, MSc, PhD. Such a title, once earned, is for life.

The meaning of the word professional has not changed, and you have failed to make a case as to why it would have. Your question remains superfluous.

[RobertJasiek]

what income?

Rob van Zeijst would have understood immediately:) I speak of missing income; income one cannot make from one's usual profession at home because one is on tournament holiday.

If I had a concern, it would be about a lack of a proper website for the games. That and FIDE not participating. That and Duplicate Poker not being present.

Right.

[HermanHiddema]

If I had a concern, it would be about a lack of a proper website for the games.

Working on it!

[RobertJasiek]

I would compare it to a university.

Universities are very different things.

The meaning of the word professional has not changed, and you have failed to make a case as to why it would have.

There is not the ONE meaning of the word but there are different possible meanings:
- member of pro association
- having rank issued by pro association
- living from prize money
- living from professional activities of whichever kinds
etc.

Your question remains superfluous.

I do not explain it for the third time why the question has been essential for me.

[lemmata]

After having mentioned my professional activity as go author / publisher / teacher, I have just got this explanation from the WMSG organisers:

Professional go players are being meant. I am an "amateur". Catalin is "not an amateur".

So it seems that, for the WMSG 2012, the implied definition of "amateur" is "not being member of any professional go association".

The definition of "professional" hasn't changed in decades. Whatever gave you the idea that it had changed now?

Professional ignorance?

Okay...this seems unnecessarily snide and hurtful. I understand that you might not like his tone or what you guess is his intent, but his questions were valid. In the real world, events organized in a professional manner at least make the attempt to precisely define the important terms (so that they are beyond dispute...this is what all that small print is), even if we think that everyone already agrees what they are. This helps avoid unpleasant future disputes and avoid liability in the event that disputes do arise.

Did Nihon Ki-in's poorly written rules not lead to some disputes with Go Seigen? At that point, go had already been professionally played for hundreds of years in Japan and a lot of people probably thought that everything was so obvious that rules did not need to be carefully stated.

Furthermore, the standard for being an amateur is quite strict in the sports world. Minor league players in baseball are considered professionals. Youth club players in many sports are considered professionals. If you are trying to get a basketball college scholarship in America and you have played for money in some Macedonian youth team (that arguably is weaker than the college team you are trying to join), then you are a pro and do not qualify. If rules are not carefully stated, we might also possibly ruin the lives of people who made careful plans and large investments based on what was to them an obvious interpretation of the rules, which were in reality ambiguous.

If you really feel that his questions were ignorant, then could you not simply politely enlighten him and move on? Ignorance is not a sin.

Also, as annoying as it might be for the organizers to receive an e-mail from Robert asking them to define what a "professional" is when most go players agree on its definition, his e-mail serves to remind the organizers that there is a possible gap in their thinking. What will happen when AGA selects its pros? What will happen if a Pan-African pro organization is formed? It is not like Robert is challenging their definition and saying that they must use his definition. He was asking for clarification. Those are two clearly different things and one is vastly more annoying than the other. By asking this annoying question, Robert may inadvertently have helped prevent the more annoying of the two if the organizers are smart enough to amend their publicly declared definitions to remove the more annoying possibility.

Again, people are being sidetracked here. The question here isn't what most people understand the meaning of "professional" to be. The real question is whether there is value in explicitly defining the term in the course of organizing major events.

[Javaness2]

Again, people are being sidetracked here. The question here isn't what most people understand the meaning of "professional" to be. The real question is whether there is value in explicitly defining the term in the course of organizing major events.

Can you think of any real value, given that everyone knows what the word means in common usage?

[Javaness2]

Again, people are being sidetracked here. The question here isn't what most people understand the meaning of "professional" to be. The real question is whether there is value in explicitly defining the term in the course of organizing major events.

Can you think of any real value, given that everyone knows what the word means in common usage?

[lemmata]

Again, people are being sidetracked here. The question here isn't what most people understand the meaning of "professional" to be. The real question is whether there is value in explicitly defining the term in the course of organizing major events.

Can you think of any real value, given that everyone knows what the word means in common usage?

Doesn't everyone know that smoking cigarettes gives you cancer? Doesn't everyone know that "Buy 1 Get 1 Free" coupons do not mean that every single (1) tube of toothpaste I buy results in an extra tube (with no limits on number of tubes purchased) but rather exactly one tube of toothpaste I buy results in exactly one extra tube? Doesn't everyone realize that freshly brewed coffee is pretty hot whether it comes from McDonald's or your own home? Doesn't everyone realize that small objects might be choking hazards for little kids?

Organizers and planners with professional attitudes like to define and state the obvious. We're not talking about some neighborhood tournament here.

[HermanHiddema]

Doesn't everyone know that smoking cigarettes gives you cancer? Doesn't everyone know that "Buy 1 Get 1 Free" coupons do not mean that every single (1) tube of toothpaste I buy results in an extra tube (with no limits on number of tubes purchased) but rather exactly one tube of toothpaste I buy results in exactly one extra tube? Doesn't everyone realize that freshly brewed coffee is pretty hot whether it comes from McDonald's or your own home? Doesn't everyone realize that small objects might be choking hazards for little kids?

Organizers and planners with professional attitudes like to define and state the obvious. We're not talking about some neighborhood tournament here.

Does anyone need to have "toothpaste" defined? or "coffee"?

If we were to define "professional" to be defined as "a person who has received a professional rank from one of the professional go associations", do we then need to further define "person", "received", "rank" or "association"?

There are limits to what it is reasonable to define, and what is a commonly understood word.

[Javaness2]

As a challenge, lets see who can make the longest announcement, by fully defining everything that they possibly can.

[lemmata]

Doesn't everyone know that smoking cigarettes gives you cancer? Doesn't everyone know that "Buy 1 Get 1 Free" coupons do not mean that every single (1) tube of toothpaste I buy results in an extra tube (with no limits on number of tubes purchased) but rather exactly one tube of toothpaste I buy results in exactly one extra tube? Doesn't everyone realize that freshly brewed coffee is pretty hot whether it comes from McDonald's or your own home? Doesn't everyone realize that small objects might be choking hazards for little kids?

Organizers and planners with professional attitudes like to define and state the obvious. We're not talking about some neighborhood tournament here.

Does anyone need to have "toothpaste" defined? or "coffee"?

If we were to define "professional" to be defined as "a person who has received a professional rank from one of the professional go associations", do we then need to further define "person", "received", "rank" or "association"?

There are limits to what it is reasonable to define, and what is a commonly understood word.

Actually, if you wanted to minimize dispute, you would define a pro as "a person who has received a professional rank from an approved organization", where "approved organization" would be defined earlier in the rule book by a list containing the two Japanese organizations, and the organizations of China, Korea, and Taiwan. After all, anyone can start their own professional organization.

Also, a toothpaste coupon will contain a picture and item code of the specific kind of toothpaste that is being sold. There is no need to further define toothpaste. The words "caution: this coffee may be hot" are written on the cup. The room for confusion about what the warning means by "coffee" is nonexistent. You are stretching my argument to where it is not meant be applied. [EDIT: I removed a comment that might be construed as being sarcastic. While it wasn't meant to be sarcastic, I don't want to create unnecessary conflict.]

For what it's worth, the NBA rule book actually defines what is meant by "basket", "backboard", and "step". Seriously.

[shapenaji]

Okay...this seems unnecessarily snide and hurtful. I understand that you might not like his tone or what you guess is his intent, but his questions were valid. In the real world, events organized in a professional manner at least make the attempt to precisely define the important terms (so that they are beyond dispute...this is what all that small print is), even if we think that everyone already agrees what they are. This helps avoid unpleasant future disputes and avoid liability in the event that disputes do arise.

...

If you really feel that his questions were ignorant, then could you not simply politely enlighten him and move on? Ignorance is not a sin.

...

Again, people are being sidetracked here. The question here isn't what most people understand the meaning of "professional" to be. The real question is whether there is value in explicitly defining the term in the course of organizing major events.

Actually, I was punning lightheartedly, clearly that tone didn't come across...

Professional ignorance: ignorance of professionality?

Professional ignorance: in the business of not knowing, I have often called myself professionally ignorant

I don't believe ignorance is a sin, unless it's willful! Which in this case, it's not.

[lemmata]

...

I am sorry about that. I misunderstood your intent. I normally enjoy puns, but this one was in my mental blind spot.

[RobertJasiek]

what is a commonly understood word.

The common understanding of a phrase like "professional player" would be "his profession (i.e., [major] source of income) is to be a player", and already this is not the understanding you are presuming as "obvious and only possible". The common understanding of a phrase like "player with a rank issued by a professional association" would be what it says, but this phrase is not used by the organisers.

[quantumf]

I'd have to side with RJ on this topic - Javaness and Herman, it feels like you're using previous disagreements to cloud your judgement here. There's absolutely no harm in asking organizers to clearly state what the entry rules are, and while "professional" may have a common understanding, it really is a very vague word.

As an aside, the term "professional" is a pretty awful term, in my opinion. The pro at my local golf club is certainly a "professional", in that he makes his living from (teaching) golf, and while he's pretty strong, stronger than almost everyone at the club, it's not like he's competed in major tournaments (although he has performed pretty well in years gone by in local/regional tournaments). He may or may not be accredited as pretty competent by some suitable body, but there's no assumption that he's been the best of the best in a national qualifying tournament before he was 18 years old.

I dislike using the term "professional" when talking to outsiders, because I'm really using it to mean exceptionally strong players, while I'm sure most people just assume I mean people who earn their living from it.

Note - I don't play golf.