Where is the crucial mistake...1k vs. 1k?

sholvar · Post by **sholvar** » Sat Jul 14, 2012 2:39 pm

I think this game is a good example of why just knowing good and bad moves is not everything in Go. It's also a game of spirits, answering the question of who is better at forcing the other one to his will. This guy didn't have to struggle once, because you never questioned his plan. You always followed nicely, taking small locally good moves and let him have his way. That's not a way to win.

Look at the following advice from Bill Spight:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It is probably not the best move and you won't find much about it in any Go book or database, but it shows exactly the spirit needed! Black wants to build a moyo, so what can you do to stop him?

Have you ever played such kind of move? Even though it looks wrong and feels scary, just to punch the other one in his ugly face (not literally, of course

). Well, maybe you can give it a try. Probably you won't just see an improvement in game but also an improvement in excitement, because of the higher risk involved and that special feeling if you develop a tactic that is yours and not just taken from a book.

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And to also discuss a little about the moves, I don't think K16 was a mistake. Actually I'm quite sure it isn't, even though I'm many ranks lower then most other participants in the discussion. The reason for my strong believe is that I read about this corner position just some days ago:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a . O . . e . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . d b . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |[/go]

What I understood is this: a is a very big invasion for black, sometimes it's so big that he should play it imidiately after the joseki. White on the other hand really want's to play at b to increase his top side moyo and protect a. The extension at b can be stopped with c, though, which itself is a very, very good extension of his right side moyo for black, if he has one (like in the game). So Black really likes a and he really likes c and in some regard he also likes to protect the corner at some point. But what he really doesn't like is to play around b...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc a suboptimal play by black $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a . @ . . b . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . # . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

The thing is that 1 doesn't really help with a, in fact it often leads white to defend a in some way (what happened in the game), destroying a really awesome invasion for black. Also it doesn't protect the corner very well. So even if White doesn't respond directly (which I would suggest in the game) a is not so great anymore, because the marked white stone is not dead yet and with 1 and a we already invested 2 stones to get the value of one move. White can still invade the corner, right? Last but not least 1 and the marked black stone don't work so well together. It seems so inefficient to have both on the board. Extending out one more is even worse I'd figure, because it gives white some additional cutting aji and thus maybe a way into the moyo.

So this was the theory as I learned it from various books, online articles and youtube videos over the last couple of days. Correct me, if anything's wrong. Anyway, concluding from this I'd say, that K16 was well played and white's continuation on N15 was actually a mistake. It just doesn't look so wrong, because in the game white simply obeys instead of starting to fight or invade and white's answer might've even looked relatively big and urgent locally.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc a suboptimal play by black $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . c . O . . d . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 a . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . b , X . . |[/go]

So I'd suggest white leaves the joseki intact but instead of bowing his head to 1 he starts to fight with a or invades at b, hoping to use the weakness at a as aji to help his invasion. To some degree moves around c and d are miai in my eyes, so they can be played later on, with c being a little better if white has some thickness showing towards the top side (e.g. from the top-left corner) and d being a little better if black gets a stable group on the top side.

For black instead of 1 I'd say:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . a , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black shouldn't play N15, but either remove the big weakness at a or play on the wide open side with b. He shouldn't worry so much about c, because his response at d will be the perfect continuation of his moyo and his is just bigger (yes, size matters

).
I'd prefer b slightly, because 'a' somehow feels a little slow.

lemmata · Post by **lemmata** » Sat Jul 14, 2012 4:18 pm

I am pretty weak, so don't take this as advice. I just want to see what the many strong players here think.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . a . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . c , # . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . @ . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . # . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . # . . . . . . . O . O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I look at this board and think

Black's position on the bottom is thin and open. Black position on the bottom is center-oriented and not territory-oriented.
Black played a wide pincer in the lower right corner and did not subdue the approach stone forcefully and decided to surround on a larger scale. However, the pincer stone is low.
White has already secured some territory in the two bottom corners. Black has not secured any territory yet.

So then I would have the following objectives...

Plan out the game so that I will have the opportunity to reduce the right side by taking advantage of the low pincer stone and the aji of the approach stone.
It's okay to let the approach [EDIT] stone die, but make sure that it is not captured on a large scale.
It's okay to let black take some territory as long as we can limit his influence and look to reduce the right side.

I would play at K16(a) and

If black encloses the upper right corner at O17(b), immediately start reducing the right side.
If black approaches at C14(d), white can block the corner and take sente to start reducing the right side (c?). If black picks a fight, use the fight to try and erase black's influence by creating some thickness in the center.

This is sort of my personal style. I often end up playing somewhat drawn out games. I wonder if it's too passive? It's probably suboptimal (please let me know why if you know!) as well, but it works okay against players of my level.

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Sat Jul 14, 2012 11:03 pm

Like Lemmata, I like K16.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc A point of comparison $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . W . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

As an idle thought, can white play Q18 instead of K16 in the game?

sholvar · Post by **sholvar** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:23 am

I saw the following Exercise in the book Chinese Opening, page 75 and 78, "Problem 2". For a reasonable discussion I have to spoiler the problem's answer, so anybody who doesn't want that should not click the spoiler below!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Where should black play? Problem 2, Kato Masao 1977 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Adding a 3rd dimension to the Moyo. Problem 2, Kato Masao 1977 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . a . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . 1 , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

a and b are considered wrong, because then White could and should play (1).

The answer is of course a little questionable because the whole book is so old, but it is at least a small hint, that around move 24 are
a) more mistakes by black then by white and
b) a critical time to complete or counter black's moyo.

Life In 19x19

Where is the crucial mistake...1k vs. 1k?

Re: Where is the crucial mistake...1k vs. 1k?

Re: Where is the crucial mistake...1k vs. 1k?

Re: Where is the crucial mistake...1k vs. 1k?

Re: Where is the crucial mistake...1k vs. 1k?