Best protection in endgame

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emeraldemon
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Best protection in endgame

Post by emeraldemon »

Here's a position I botched in a recent game:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 How should black play?
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ --------------------[/go]
What's the best way for black to play, and what are the followups? I think I know the answer now, but I'm curious to see others' sequences.
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speedchase
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Re: Best protection in endgame

Post by speedchase »

This looks like the only move to me, but I am not sure
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 How should black play?
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O 6 |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X 3 |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X 1 4 |
$$ . . . . . . O X 7 2 |
$$ . . . . . O O O X 8|
$$ . . . . . . . X 5 . |
$$ --------------------[/go]
I think it becomes seki
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Best protection in endgame

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

This looks like the vital point to me:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X . 1 |
$$ . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ --------------------[/go]
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
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hyperpape
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Re: Best protection in endgame

Post by hyperpape »

I too get that the diagonal move lives without ko or seki.
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emeraldemon
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Re: Best protection in endgame

Post by emeraldemon »

Yes it lives, but I don't think that way gets the most points.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X . 1 |
$$ . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . B 2 . |
$$ --------------------[/go]
Can you find a way to save this stone?
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Dusk Eagle
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Re: Best protection in endgame

Post by Dusk Eagle »

I don't think your move works Joaz:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X 7 |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X 3 1 |
$$ . . . . . . O X 2 5 |
$$ . . . . . O O O X 8 |
$$ . . . . . . 6 X 4 . |
$$ --------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X 3 1 |
$$ . . . . . . O X 2 6 |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X 4 5 |
$$ --------------------[/go]
However, I can't see anything wrong with this move to live:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . O X 1 . |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ --------------------[/go]
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
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LocoRon
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Re: Best protection in endgame

Post by LocoRon »

speedchase wrote:
This looks like the only move to me, but I am not sure
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 How should black play?
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O 6 |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X 3 |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X 1 4 |
$$ . . . . . . O X 7 2 |
$$ . . . . . O O O X 8 |
$$ . . . . . . . X 5 . |
$$ --------------------[/go]
I think it becomes seki
hidden since the original was. ;)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 If white makes the mistake of 6...
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O 6 |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X 3 |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X 1 4 |
$$ . . . . . . O X . 2 |
$$ . . . . . O O O X 7 |
$$ . . . . . . . X 5 . |
$$ --------------------[/go]
Other than that little nitpick, I think you're right, black 1 does look like it leads to seki.
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Dusk Eagle
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Re: Best protection in endgame

Post by Dusk Eagle »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O 7 |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X 3 |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X 1 4 |
$$ . . . . . . O X 6 2 |
$$ . . . . . O O O X 8 |
$$ . . . . . . . X 5 . |
$$ --------------------[/go]
Depending on the outside, this may be white's best play. Black escapes but with no eyes.
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
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jts
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Re: Best protection in endgame

Post by jts »

LocoRon wrote:
speedchase wrote:
This looks like the only move to me, but I am not sure
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 How should black play?
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O 6 |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X 3 |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X 1 4 |
$$ . . . . . . O X 7 2 |
$$ . . . . . O O O X 8 |
$$ . . . . . . . X 5 . |
$$ --------------------[/go]
I think it becomes seki
but 4 at 8?
hidden since the original was. ;)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 If white makes the mistake of 6...
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O 6 |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X 3 |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X 1 4 |
$$ . . . . . . O X . 2 |
$$ . . . . . O O O X 7 |
$$ . . . . . . . X 5 . |
$$ --------------------[/go]
Other than that little nitpick, I think you're right, black 1 does look like it leads to seki.
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emeraldemon
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Re: Best protection in endgame

Post by emeraldemon »

Is anyone else getting timeouts? It took me several tries to post.
I was wrong before, I think Dusk Eagle has it right.
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Best protection in endgame

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Upon further reflection, this is what I would play:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X 1 . |
$$ --------------------[/go]
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
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Bill Spight
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Re: Best protection in endgame

Post by Bill Spight »

Three ways to live.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X 1 . |
$$ --------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . O X 1 . |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ --------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . O X . 1 |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ --------------------[/go]

Which is best?

Edit: I had it right the first time. ;)
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Best protection in endgame

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Bill Spight wrote:Three ways to live.
...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . O X 1 . |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ --------------------[/go]
...
Maybe two?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X 3 |
$$ , . . . . . O X . 2 |
$$ . . . . . . O X 1 . |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X 4 . |
$$ --------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . . . . O X 6 |
$$ , . . . . . O X 5 2 |
$$ . . . . . . O X 1 . |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X 3 . |
$$ --------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X 3 2 |
$$ . . . . . . O X 1 . |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X 4 . |
$$ --------------------[/go]
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
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Bill Spight
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Re: Best protection in endgame

Post by Bill Spight »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X 5 2 |
$$ . . . . . . O X 1 3 |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ --------------------[/go]
Maybe three? :)
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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emeraldemon
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Re: Best protection in endgame

Post by emeraldemon »

What about this?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X . 2 |
$$ . . . . . . O X 1 3 |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ --------------------[/go]
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