Robert Terry on "Why Go has Failed to Prosper in the US"

[hyperpape]

This seems like a nice question for someone with access to the relevant database. I suspect that the majority of people who have ever had an AGA membership (which might or might not include the majority of people who currently have one) kept a membership for the period of time they actively played in tournaments.

[lemmata]

This seems like a nice question for someone with access to the relevant database.

News team, assemble!

[gowan]

New AGA members currently get member numbers around 13000, if I'm not mistaken. This represents a reasonable estimate of the number of people who have become AGA members since membership numbers were first used because the numbers are not re-used. Promoting tournament play is definitely high on the list of AGA priorities and goals. It does seem reasonable to me that a lot of people belong to the AGA while they are active tournament players and may drop their memberships when they no longer play in tournaments. As for increasing the membership numbers, I think the AGA is swimming upstream due to the existence of internet go servers. The AGA structure is based on go clubs, since clubs are the voting entities, but unfortunately go clubs with brick-and-mortar meeting places are not thriving. There used to be an on-line club, Wings Over Calm Water, which was/is an AGA chapter, but if it still exists we don't hear much about it lately. Actually, I think that servers like kgs definitely function like a huge go club which is open 24/7. If we think of kgs as a go club, it lacks the friendly intimacy of your local in-real-life club but it offers any-time any-place access and you can always find a playing partner at or near your own strength.

Thinking of the numbers of AGA members, the average number of active members over a few years might be a fair estimate of the number of people who play in AGA tournaments. If, say, that number is 2000 active tournament players does that seem small? To play in most AGA sanctioned tournaments you have to be physically present at the tournament site which means travel for many people. Would the AGA get more registered members if it sponsored rated on-line tournaments? There are a lot of problems associated with this sort of on-line tournament play e.g. cheating through use of books or a having stronger player choose your moves. So it's not so easy to increase the membership, I think.

[Crazy4Go]

*scratches rant*

I'm not really sure why Go isn't as big in the US. But mainstream view in the US is quite.. 'hollywood'. We still lack much practice in zen. I blame mainstream.

[Javaness2]

Articles like this are good to have. It is important for individuals to question whether an organisation or community is doing the right things. I started writing something similar on SL a while back This series of articles, however, seems pretty silly so far.

The first article does the old "Chess v Go" comparison. It contains the amazing line "But look at how the magazine, New in Chess, has grown at the same time. Originally it was 6½” by 9½”. Now it is 8¼” by 10¾”. That is palpable proof of the advance of chess on the cultural scene." Is this for real? Magnus Carlson doesn't want to play for the world championship because it is so badly organised, so an obvious example to pick out there Anyway, as has been said before, Chess is already known. Chess exists in Newspaper columns (although these are steadily being killed off, just as the # of magazines is dropping.)

The second article starts off with some pseudo intellectual posturing, throwing in Broadway critics and William Golding.
"Tens of thousands of players in America enjoy playing the game in their neighborhood clubs. But they do not assemble into a national force that could promote go effectively. Why not? Perhaps it is because they are not motivated by stimulating promotion." (Tens of thousands... really?)

What does it end up saying? "The point to be made here is that go organization in the US has been managed too long in a similar way by failures. People who have failed at go and at life. It is time to move on and move up." Where was the justification for this point?

Blog post 3... "In the past couple of weeks I have explained why go has not been effectively promoted in the US. " Well I guess I missed that part. "This is not my opinion. The statistics bear it out. Membership in the American Go Association has not grown in thirty years." Incorrect. Misleading the reader with false facts. Then, finally, we start to get to some interesting points.

1. Something about an article in American Go Extra... I didn't actually understand this story, but it sounded like it might be interesting and relevant. Maybe the anecdote will be fleshed out later.
2. The AGA was given lots of money. Could the Ing grants have been spent better... yes, but I don't believe they were pissed away. As has emerged recently, the Seattle Go Centre has been commercially profitable, despite the initial massive debt it was saddled with. Is Robert Terry confusing the AGA with the NK?
3. Organising a Go Congress in a "media centre" will lead to massive media interest. Patently false, you obtain the filler material slots, and some specialist follow ups if you do good work.
4. A story about Cotsen... now this one did seem interesting!

[xed_over]

Robert Terry is someone who has translated quite a bit of Japanese go material (books and articles) into English and therefore can be considered a somewhat influential voice in the Western go community.

never heard of him

[Javaness2]

I thought the website belonged to somebody else, since posts where being made by somebody called "mark". It does seem, on reading further, that it is actually Robert Terry is the owner.
http://gowizardry.com/?p=909 about the American Go Extra and
http://gowizardry.com/?p=1949 about "Masterpieces of Handicap Go" seem interesting starting points
It does appear that his claim to fame is http://gowizardry.com/?p=2401 - translator of Killer of Go.
The full list of his works is here: http://senseis.xmp.net/?RobertJTerry - the last book on that lists translation certainly irked me a little reading it

[tchan001]

List of books shown on SL translated by Robert Terry into English:
Amazing Happenings in the Game of Go
Catching Scent of Victory
Dictionary of Basic Fuseki, Vol. 1
Dictionary Of Basic Fuseki, Vol. 2
Dictionary Of Basic Fuseki, Vol. 3
Dictionary Of Basic Fuseki, Vol. 4
Handicap Go The Book Yutopian
Imagination of a Go Master
Killer of Go
Otake's Secrets of Strategy
Perceiving the Direction of Play
Pure and Simple - Takao's Astute Use of Brute Force
Star Point Joseki
Startling Beauty of the Game of Go
Tesuji and Anti-Suji of Go
The Way of Creating a Thick and Strong Game
Vital Points and Skillful Finesse for Sabaki

Books not shown on SL:
Real Professional Game Find the Next Move
The Best of Kido: The Art of Positional Analysis
The Best of Kido: The Ins and Outs of Life and Death

---------

I would guess that "mark" is probably someone who helps out with his website as his blog material is signed Robert J. Terry

[lemmata]

*scratches rant*I'm not really sure why Go isn't as big in the US. But mainstream view in the US is quite.. 'hollywood'. We still lack much practice in zen. I blame mainstream.

If you think that the mainstream view in any part of Asia is zen, then you are quite mistaken. It's just as "hollywood" over there as it is here (although perhaps in slightly different ways).

[Redbeard]

Robert Terry may be a prolific and respected translator, but these posts are coming off as rants and personal attacks against the AGA leadership. This is just the kind of off-base criticism that cause organizations to stop sharing information with the public and treat their constituents (which Mr. Terry does not appear to be) as hostile.

I am all for constructive criticism and I also question the current state and relevance of the AGA. However these articles have not been constructive. I can only hope that future blog posts by Mr. Terry will be less inflammatory and work towards helping the AGA instead of harming it.

[Javaness2]

Well, lets give the blog some time to run, then we can see the full picture.

[yithril]

I dunno, I think Go is doing pretty well in the U.S. if you consider the geographical size and population. It's known to more people than I think a lot of Go players think, it's just only so much of the population is predisposed to playing cerebral strategy board games. Right now it's a bit of Asian Exotica or something that you splash in a movie, but a lot of people have at least seen it, they just would never sit down and play.

I think the Go community in the states has got to give itself a break and breathe It's not like we have big multibillion dollar multinational corporations blasting the airwaves with Go with celebrities hawking go boards on the side of the road. That would be cool of course. We've got a national organization with some money and a lot of volunteer work with teachers doing their best in their off hours or trying to make a living off of something that is niche and not necessarily well respected until people get to know it.

Think about it this way, S. Korea is a Go playing nation and that is in large part due to Cho Namcheol and his goal to spread Go. I read somewhere that they estimate about 15% of the population plays Go. I have no idea if that's true, but lets say it's a bit less. That's after 50 years, with a mature, professional scene with tournament sponsorship, Go salons as viable businesses, and Go in schools. After 50 years of an actual infrastructure for Go players you get most people knowing it exists and only a small fraction that plays, and an even smaller fraction that plays it enough to get decent. When I was there, everyone had seen it, many Koreans had no idea how to play and thought I was a super genius for knowing how, and you basically had to go to a salon, a school, or go on tygem to get people that played regularly.

So I think the push to put Go in schools, get it in the hands of more children, and to keep doing flashes of it in the media is working, it's just going to take time to find the people predisposed to it. I know it can be frustrating thinking of another decade of going to Go tournaments with only 15 people in a small backroom in the University where half the people are from the local Chinese or Korean community, but that's slowly changing bit by bit.

[Saltie]

Absolutely.

In Europe Nederland was a leading go country because they cared to teach their children.

And the 3 leading Asian go countries have go at school.

In France top young players are coming because some crazy people believed enough to teach go at school in Strasbourg.

Only one way the best one: spread go in schools

[Garuseimasahi]

*sigh... At some point, somebody has to stop talking about promoting go... and actually promote go. There comes a point where you have to stop waiting for somebody else to do it.

[Mivo]

My thoughts after reading the blog entry ...

Telling people who put effort, time and often money into a (voluntary or not) project that they fail at both their work and also at life is a rather suboptimal way of trying to make them change or improve. It's much more likely that they'll give you the finger.