Topazg vs. Yithril

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topazg
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Re: Topazg vs. Yithril

Post by topazg »

@loons:

Originally I'd intended playing a bit more deeply, and relying on White's need to connect:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O a . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Something like this seemed to make for good sabaki opportunities, but I could read a lot of complications because White can get moves like "a" in sente. The problem is I don't want to bend here now (which I did a few moves ago) because I think White can't be allowed to make that moyo too large. This was a downside of giving him a free move by securing the top right, and maybe that was a mistake and I should have approached the lower left. I don't regret it though, as I want to feel happier making thick moves even if they're too slow, simply so I know I'm properly considering them.

I also considered:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . 3 . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 5 7 . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 9 4 1 6 . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . 0 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But the hane at :w64: either makes my reduction ineffective (if I ignore), or creates me lots of problems if I respond. I could try something like :b69: and "a", but it all feels like overplay to me. I didn't want Ed screaming broken shape at me either :P

If he hanes on the outside, I can pull back:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 b . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . a . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm happy enough with these as miai points. Of course, if he goes the other way, we're back to the crazy fight, but I think it's somewhat better for me than some of my other variations:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 3 . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 a . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


What to do here though? It's tricky, if I don't extend the ponnuki is painful, and if I do, he can connect at "a" and it's hard to do much with my group other than a very crude push around the outside. Extending feels heavy:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . B . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 7 . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . 6 . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I could think of something like this, but two eyes look ... difficult, particularly if he just hanes underneath. It's hard to recover the marked stone effectively for me. Maybe something odd like this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . 3 . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If this is good though, it implies that :b61: was probably a mistake. It can be hard to differentiate between kikashi that creates enough aji to play with, and playing the necessary later move first because you know the aji is there. Certainly it feels very unlike the sort of position a professional would create, so it's most likely bad. I'm just a bit stuck for ideas that are clearly good, and I'd rather not get too badly squeezed. The problem is what I really want is something facing the center, so I could even consider:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O b . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 3 7 . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . 6 1 O 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 a a . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . a . . . . b . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X a X X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This actually fixes all the cuts around "a", and prevents his moyo getting much bigger, but is it already too big? All the moves at the "b" points become really game changing, and it's very unclear to me how to count the point _potential_ - I could just end up 15 points behind, without much left to catch it up with. Alternatively, I could end up 20 points ahead, without a worry. I actually quite like the final result, I just need to feel less greedy about White's moyo. The ponnuki in the last dia looks typically bad for Black, but it's also conceivable that the influence Black gets is superior. I just ... don't know, too much unsettled everywhere.
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Loons
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Re: Topazg vs. Yithril

Post by Loons »

I do feel like wanting to make a new weak group on the left after leaving a weak group on bottom is overplay, though who knows. Guess we'll see.
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Loons,
Your last var (below): my first feeling, based on B's broken shape alone,
says not good for B; and that's not to mention what you said about
B starting a second weak group on the left in addition to the bottom, which I agree.
Loons wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm61 ?
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . 5 . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Loons wrote:Also; O6 shape and not N5?
I also think N5 ( :b1:) is better than O6 (a) for B:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . a . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X 1 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Obs:
If :w58: was at :wc: instead of (b) in the game -- and if still :bc: - :w1:,
will this be a tough fight for B, especially if W has the chance to get (c) or (d)?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . c d . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O b W O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
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yithril
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Re: Topazg vs. Yithril

Post by yithril »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I obviously cut him.
Nein Mann, ich will noch nicht gehen, ich will noch 'n bisschen tanzen.
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topazg
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Re: Topazg vs. Yithril

Post by topazg »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X 3 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The more and more I analyse this, the more I realise it's simply a mistake, and a cut my losses. I should have taken his last point where I either get the reading I'd initially expected:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 4 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . 3 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Compared to my lines, this looks fine, or:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


There's no easy way to defend here. I was worried about eyespace but I think that's a baseless concern with his weak group and my ability to connect to the corner in the right.

On that note, I've picked this connection move because I've realised he has no cutting points, he can't break the ladder these stones were initially being used for, and it's a bit thicker for if he decides to invade on the right. Other points I considered:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O a . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


"a" partly expands the moyo potential, but it also prevents suffering too badly from the :b61: :w62: exchange by restricting the moyo he can build. It's one of those important border of two moyos moves - however, I don't think my gain is going to be all that big, as I also want "b".

"b" is a fair standard move, to which I've decided on a non-standard response:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . 6 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X 3 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


With :b63: in place, I am considering this instead of the standard sequence, simply because I think it fits my stones better:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm65 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . 5 3 2 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think the weaknesses in White's shape and the additional points at the top don't feel as valuable to me as an extension towards the center working with the bottom wall.

"c" (3 alternative moves) is simply trying to make the most of the aji of :b61: and still perform a good reduction of White's potential.

I suspect my last move cost a good 5-10 points sadly.
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Re: Topazg vs. Yithril

Post by yithril »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X 3 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O . X , 4 . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Invasion time kiddies. His move at 1 was weird. I don't know why he wants a fight there but okay.
Nein Mann, ich will noch nicht gehen, ich will noch 'n bisschen tanzen.
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topazg
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Re: Topazg vs. Yithril

Post by topazg »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X 3 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O 5 X , 4 . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Man, I've had a terrible few days, especially today, and should probably come back to this some other time, but this looks kinda sente and then we'll see if I can kill White. If not, the game's probably not looking so good, so it'll be fun to try.
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Re: Topazg vs. Yithril

Post by yithril »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X 3 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O 5 X , 4 . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . 6 O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Pretty much sente and makes him thicker. White 4 probably looks crazy to some of you right? :P
Nein Mann, ich will noch nicht gehen, ich will noch 'n bisschen tanzen.
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Re: Topazg vs. Yithril

Post by topazg »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X 3 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O 5 X , 4 . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . 6 O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So, this is fun.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . 7 d . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X 3 c . b . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O 5 X , 4 . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . 6 O . X e . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


What nasty tricks does he have up his sleeve?
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Re: Topazg vs. Yithril

Post by yithril »

Hmm, never seen this response before. Time to read!
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Re: Topazg vs. Yithril

Post by topazg »

Hmmm, I resign!

That'll teach me to play a couple of moves without doing any reading:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm68 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . b . . . . . 5 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X a X X X X 8 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O X X 3 O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . O O 4 X 1 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Because :w70: and :w74: are sente against the corner, I can't see any way of keeping your eyespace down. I had a few nice ideas I thought, but none of them seem to work - you either kill me in the corner, make 2 eyes, or escape - there seems little chance in preventing you from making another eye if you escape, particularly as I have the "a" -> "b" cut to worry about.

A nice little tesuji that :)
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Re: Topazg vs. Yithril

Post by yithril »

!!!!!!!

........

???????

Umm....okay? I haven't played any moves yet?

This has happened to me 3 times in Malkovich games! :P I just magically make my opponent lose all resolve.
Nein Mann, ich will noch nicht gehen, ich will noch 'n bisschen tanzen.
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Re: Topazg vs. Yithril

Post by topazg »

yithril wrote:!!!!!!!

........

???????

Umm....okay? I haven't played any moves yet?

This has happened to me 3 times in Malkovich games! :P I just magically make my opponent lose all resolve.


Hehehe, sorry, I'm more than happy discussing some lines with you in this corner, but if you _do_ live, I either invade unreasonably on the left side and rip you off, or alternatively I'm far too far behind, no?
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Re: Topazg vs. Yithril

Post by yithril »

Well yeah I mean if I live here then it's your top against my left and you'd have to do something, but I honestly don't think Black has lost.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O X X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . O O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Anyways, since it's over, I'll just discuss my thought process. I don't like 1 because of bad aji at a.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . 5 . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O 4 7 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O X X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . O O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So to me, extending along the side from the outside is not that great unless my reading is off. I figured my left was equal to your top so the right was your advantage.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . X . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 4 a . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O O . O X X , 1 . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . O O . X 2 5 . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I was mainly thinking about this and trying to escape. You're thick though, so maybe 1 and 3 are too deep. I'm not sure. Maybe I should start off with 3. 3 could be played at A too.
Nein Mann, ich will noch nicht gehen, ich will noch 'n bisschen tanzen.
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Re: Topazg vs. Yithril

Post by yithril »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O O . 1 O . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . a . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


My defense earlier was mistaken too I think. I didn't play 1 because I didn't like the bad aji at A, but that might not be a big deal if I jump in the center. So keeping Black split is better.
Nein Mann, ich will noch nicht gehen, ich will noch 'n bisschen tanzen.
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