Playing White against San-Ren-Sai

SpongeBob · Post by **SpongeBob** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:51 am

Does anyone have some information on how to play with white against San-Ren-Sai? I find it difficult, especially if you do not want to get into a moyo-contest.

Sverre · Post by **Sverre** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:53 am

SpongeBob wrote:Does anyone have some information on how to play with white against San-Ren-Sai? I find it difficult, especially if you do not want to get into a moyo-contest.

Battousai has a couple of videos on youtube about sanrensei

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jK68jrk-veM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NJT3LaWdUI

ez4u · Post by **ez4u** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:30 am

SpongeBob wrote:Does anyone have some information on how to play with white against San-Ren-Sai? I find it difficult, especially if you do not want to get into a moyo-contest.

Basically we all find it difficult to implement negative strategies (deciding our play based on what we don't want to do). The best way to play against San-Ren-Sei is to think positive... Nothing in hundreds of published professional games indicates that it is a killer opening. So facing it in a game is an opportunity to develop your skills playing against a moyo where Black has begun in a predictable fashion. It is therefore relatively easy to find example games by pros, youtube videos, and books on this very subject. Step up, feel confident, and if you lose, think of it as just another learning opportunity! :blackeye:

(I know this isn't the answer you're looking for, but consider the possibility that your question isn't what you're looking for either) :salute:

gowan · Post by **gowan** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:21 am

If you really want to prevent Black from playing a san-ren-sei you can do things like approach one of Black's 4-4 corner stones with move 4.

But ez4u has it right. San-ren-sei is nothing to be afraid of, at worst it is a learning opportunity. In general san-ren-sei is not as popular with pros as it once was. That's a sign that there are good ways for White to play. To see examples look for games where Takemiya lost playing san-ren-sei as black and also look for games where Takemiya plays white against the san-ren-sei. There are many possible variations for Black, too, so you'd have to look at a lot of games to get a good general idea. There is a book by Takagawa, The Power of the Star Point which is basically about the san-ren-sei opening and various strategies for White are discussed. Here is one idea:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B 19x19 diagram $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 5 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This situation is good for White because the lower left corner enclosure erases influence of the san-ren-sei.

If Black approaches the lower left corner with B5 as in:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B 19x19 diagram $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 , . . . . 6 , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White can pincer and disrupt the san-ren-sei position.

tchan001 · Post by **tchan001** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:29 am

Probably wouldn't hurt to purchase the latest book on sanrensei published in 2011
Patterns of the Sanrensei by Michael Redmond 9p
http://www.slateandshell.com/SSMR002.html
also available as a SmartGo Book

Also check out breakfast's site: http://sanrensei.info/

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:24 am

If you do not like playing against sanrensei or other moyo contests, consider this fuseki:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Contra sanrensei $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

OC, as White you will have given away 1 pt. or more, but you won't have to face sanrensei.

OTOH, if you actually want to learn something, listen to someone else.

daal · Post by **daal** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:11 am

tchan001 wrote:Probably wouldn't hurt to purchase the latest book on sanrensei published in 2011
Patterns of the Sanrensei by Michael Redmond 9p
http://www.slateandshell.com/SSMR002.html

As long as you don't spend too much time looking at the cover. :-?

gowan · Post by **gowan** » Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:02 am

Bill Spight wrote:If you do not like playing against sanrensei or other moyo contests, consider this fuseki:

$$B Contra sanrensei
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Contra sanrensei $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

OC, as White you will have given away 1 pt. or more, but you won't have to face sanrensei.

OTOH, if you actually want to learn something, listen to someone else.

It might actually be more difficult to play this way as White than to play in a standard san-ren-sei because this arrangement will require more aptitude at managing small groups and White will likely have less of an idea of Black's strategy than in the usual san-ren-sei. Looking at this again it occurs to me that it's a symmetrical position so maybe a play at tengen would be interesting for B7.

SpongeBob · Post by **SpongeBob** » Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:09 am

Wow, so many helpful replies ... :-)

tchan001 wrote:Probably wouldn't hurt to purchase the latest book on sanrensei published in 2011
Patterns of the Sanrensei by Michael Redmond 9p
http://www.slateandshell.com/SSMR002.html
also available as a SmartGo Book

Also check out breakfast's site: http://sanrensei.info/

Michael Redmond's book was an instant purchase, actually exactly what I was looking for!

I am a huge fan of battousai's videos and I know he hates to play against san-ren-sai. Actually in his KGS series, the first game he lost was against san-ren-sai (I think played by a 1 kyu).

OtakuViking · Post by **OtakuViking** » Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:28 am

You can also approach one of the 4-4's instead of taking the last corner as white if you dislike playing against san-ren-sei. If he ignores, it's not bad for you. It would be as if you'd played a 6-4 and he had approached you.

SpongeBob · Post by **SpongeBob** » Fri Aug 03, 2012 7:03 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . X . X X X . O . . a . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X X X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Redmond shows a pattern like this where white jumps out after the pincer. Later white can go into the corner at a.

He states that white can live with a sequence like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 7 . a | $$ | . . . . . X . X . X X X . O . 2 1 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X X X . X . 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . X . 4 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

How does white defend against an attack at a, though? In my variations, white dies ... :sad:

Dusk Eagle · Post by **Dusk Eagle** » Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:08 am

I don't know the answer, so I might be missing something, but how about:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . 4 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O 3 1 | $$ | . . . . . X . X . X X X . O . X O . 2 | $$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X X X . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O X O . . . 6 7 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . X 8 X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm9 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X | $$ | . . . . . X . X . X X X . O . X O . O | $$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X X X . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O X O . 4 2 O X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . X O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Or,

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm9 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X | $$ | . . . . . X . X . X X X . O . X O . O | $$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X X X . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O X O . . 1 O X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . X O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 5 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 7 . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X 8 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 9 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This may be good enough? (Though to be honest I prefer black in the second diagram, so there might be a better way to play).

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:37 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 7 . a | $$ | . . . . . X . X . X X X . O . 2 1 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X X X . X . 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O X O . . . b . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . X . 4 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

It's locally dead, but due to black's weaknesses on the outside white b is sente (for wedge or clamp) to either live or break out. However, this does mean that black moves on the outside affect this 3-3 aji, for example the capture below is bigger than you might think at first because then black might more reasonably start try to kill the 3-3. Of course white can easily play :w7:

one space to the right to make a ko instead of going for unconditional life . If black wants to kill, :b2:

is actually a rather weak way to start.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . X . X X X . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X X X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O 1 3 B a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Another point to bear in mind is if the marked stone above was low (at a) then living at 3-3 is harder (but as a downside is less good for the centre).

gowan · Post by **gowan** » Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:02 am

It might be easier for White in the following variation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 9 7 . | $$ | . . . . . X . X . X X X . O . 2 1 . b | $$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X X X . X . 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . X . 4 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Now, if Black plays at b to try to kill White a slightly easier variation is:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O 1 | $$ | . . . . . X . X . X X X . O . X O . B | $$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X X X . X . O 2 | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O X O . . 6 3 4 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . X 5 X b | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 8 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 a . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Now after Ba, Wb will result in W capturing something and making life.

This corner situation is discussed at length on SL on this page: http://senseis.xmp.net/?JosekiRelatedLi ... thExample5

SpongeBob · Post by **SpongeBob** » Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:35 am

I just wanted to give a little review for those who might be interested in the book.

Redmond first discusses several fusekis arising from the san-ren-sai (he calls them patterns). In the second part, there are 20 (!) of his games where the san-ren-sai is played. He comments those games himself, which is great. I always enjoy commented games the most when the comments are from one of the players himself.

He takes the time to discuss variations in order to explain why a certain move was necessary or weak/slack.

Sometimes the variations require deep reading which I cannot follow even when explanatory diagrams are given. But this is just natural for a game at professional level and also interesting because it gives you an idea about the reading depth of these guys.

Overall I find going over those games quite enjoyable. Redmond gets my credit for commenting those games in just about the right level of detail so that they are quite interesting and not boring (I get bored when there are too much variations which I do not want to follow).

I would say this is a definite recommendation for everyone interested in the san-ren-sai (playing with or against it).

Life In 19x19

Playing White against San-Ren-Sai

Playing White against San-Ren-Sai

Re: Playing White against San-Ren-Sai

Re: Playing White against San-Ren-Sai

Re: Playing White against San-Ren-Sai

Re: Playing White against San-Ren-Sai

Re: Playing White against San-Ren-Sai

Re: Playing White against San-Ren-Sai

Re: Playing White against San-Ren-Sai

Re: Playing White against San-Ren-Sai

Re: Playing White against San-Ren-Sai

Re: Playing White against San-Ren-Sai

Re: Playing White against San-Ren-Sai

Re: Playing White against San-Ren-Sai

Re: Playing White against San-Ren-Sai

Re: Playing White against San-Ren-Sai