Playing White against San-Ren-Sai

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oren
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Re: Playing White against San-Ren-Sai

Post by oren »

SpongeBob wrote:I would say this is a definite recommendation for everyone interested in the san-ren-sai (playing with or against it).


Just for future info, it's sanrensei and not sanrensai.

Does Redmond make any comment why it's played so rarely now?
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Re: Playing White against San-Ren-Sai

Post by Solomon »

Image
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oren
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Re: Playing White against San-Ren-Sai

Post by oren »

Araban wrote:Image


I'm not sure I get it? I looked up in smartgo for black playing sanrensei from that formation and came away with 187 games and about 48% win ration. There's not too much I can take from that.
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Re: Playing White against San-Ren-Sai

Post by Koosh »

Araban wrote:Image


Oh, I remember this on Gameboy!
Image
Ko is the best solution.
With Ko, I can keep eating and drinking until I am full.

Visit >>>Koosh's Study Journal<<<
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Re: Playing White against San-Ren-Sai

Post by speedchase »

Araban wrote:Image

shoudn't they all be sai?
sanrensai = three sai's in a row?
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shapenaji
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Re: Playing White against San-Ren-Sai

Post by shapenaji »

how about this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O 1 B |
$$ | . . . . . X . X . X X X . O . X O . 2 |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X X X . X . O 5 |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Not bent 4 because w has plenty of liberties
Tactics yes, Tact no...
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shapenaji
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Re: Playing White against San-Ren-Sai

Post by shapenaji »

So there's a fun problem here, what about this one?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X . X X X . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X X X . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]



EDIT: The nice thing about these sequences is that the only way they care what happens on the outside is if black gets a stone in one of the marked positions, so it leaves considerably less aji

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X . X X X . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X X X . X a O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O X O . . a a a |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . X . X a |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Tactics yes, Tact no...
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Re: Playing White against San-Ren-Sai

Post by EricBackus »

shapenaji wrote:So there's a fun problem here, what about this one?

OK, I'll give it a try. :)

First, it appears to me that this just dies if there is no way to take advantage of some outside weakness, since it's pretty much like white has an L+1 group and black has played a hane which kills it. So I'm looking at how to use black's weaknesses.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Black's moves are mostly forced here
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O 1 3 |
$$ | . . . . . X . X . X X X . O . X O . 2 |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X X X . X . O 4 |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O X O . . . 5 6 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . X 7 X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B White escapes
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . X . X . X X X . O . X O . X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X X X . X . O X |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O X O 5 4 2 O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . 6 X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B White lives
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . X . X . X X X . O . X O 4 X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X X X . X . O X |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O X O . . 1 O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . X O X 5 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . |[/go]
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Re: Playing White against San-Ren-Sai

Post by shapenaji »

Eric:

Good attempt, but the solution doesn't rely on aji on the right :)


EDIT:

Basically, if you have to rely on aji on the right, you're going to make it much harder to mess with the right side later.
Tactics yes, Tact no...
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Re: Playing White against San-Ren-Sai

Post by EricBackus »

Attempt #2
I still don't see any way to live internally. So maybe I can rely on aji at the top instead of the right:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White lives
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 B 4 2 5 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O 3 1 |
$$ | . . . . . X . X . X X X . O 7 X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X X X . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

This seems to capture the top black group, so white lives. I suppose black should not play B4, and instead let white live by playing there.

If black gets one of the points mentioned by shapenaji, he can either destroy the other eye:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White dies
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O 3 1 |
$$ | . . . . . X . X . X X X . O . X O . 5 |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X X X . X 6 O 4 |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O X O . . . . B |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


or capture white due to a shortage of liberties:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B 8 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O 3 1 |
$$ | . . . . . X . X . X X X . O . X O . 5 |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X X X . X 7 O 4 |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O X O . . . B 6 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White dies
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 B X X 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . X . X . X X X . O 3 X O . O |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X X X . X O O X |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O X O . . 4 B X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Nice problem, thanks!
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Re: Playing White against San-Ren-Sai

Post by LinuxGooo »

great to see all the posts and San-RenSei lovers/haters here :-)

Over last three months I have played more than 300 San-RenSei games as I like to study this style playing for influnece more in details. - And its a good start for beginners (as I did end of January this year on KGS).

If you are looking for a central source about San-RenSei, pls visit my own thread/blog being public here: http://bit.ly/sanrensei .

I just have started to build a first and small SGF collection of my own SanRenSei games you can have a look at if you like: http://bit.ly/mysanrenseigames .

-

PS: The website sanrensei.info which is named in the li19x19 forum different times, is down, unluckily. Two days ago I have contacted Alexandre Dinerchtein (Russian GO Pro Dan) who is the owner of this site to inform him about. Hopefully he will bring back the site soon.
Motto: Have fun with GO !
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My Go Blog: https://mysanrensei.wordpress.com
@ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MySanRenSeiBlog
@ Twitter: https://twitter.com/MySanRenSeiBlog
+++
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