Logical players, intuitive players ..

Talk about improving your game, resources you like, games you played, etc.

Are you a logical player or an intuitive player?

Logical player
13
27%
Intuitive player
21
43%
Richard Nixon (Probably warrants an explanatory note)
15
31%
 
Total votes: 49

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Re: Logical players, intuitive players ..

Post by gogameguru »

Thanks Robert,

To make things clear, I'm not trying to argue against your position that logic and reason are valuable tools, but I do disagree with the claim that something which we choose to call 'intuition' doesn't exist in any form. The premise of this thread is misleading insofar as it pits logic and intuition against one another, when really one complements the other. We don't fully understand how the brain works. When we don't have a complete understanding of something, creating definitions and principles can be helpful, but can also create the illusion of certainty where there is none.

If you tell me that intuition doesn't exist in your experience of the world, I'll believe you. It's impossible for me to understand how that would work, but I'll trust you anyway. And likewise, if I tell you that in my experience it does exist, please believe me, even if you can't comprehend it. We all formulate our own interpretation of the world inside our own minds and that's why when you play Go with someone you see a game and a person, instead of vibrations of light and sound.

You're never going to convince me to agree with you by just quoting a selection of what I've said and stating what amounts to the opposite back to me. Think about it. If I did the same back to you, it wouldn't change your opinion either.

We can have an interesting discussion though if you address the important point of whether dogs can do calculus ;). I joke, but this is something that's important to your argument. Please answer these three questions to help me understand:

1. If intuition doesn't exist in any way shape or form, then both people and dogs don't have intuition. How is it that they know where to run to catch balls? Are dogs reasoning logically? Are they doing calculus? Are they some sort of automaton?

2. Are you able to drive a car? Do you have to make hundreds of mathematical calculations while driving and, if so, how can you do them so quickly?

3. I rely on intuition heavily in my own games - something you claim is irrational and doesn't exist. If intuition really is figment of my imagination, I must be some kind of crazed idiot, playing at the level of a retarded gerbil. But, somehow, I manage to play as a 7 dan on Tygem. How is this possible?

For the third point: if, as you said above 'For those who do not care about the reasons, the brain takes care of it nevertheless to process its prior learning "experience".' Which you followed with 'But... experience is not intuition.' Then what should we call the ability to instantaneously apply accumulated experience? Why can't we call that process intuition? We can use your term 'rough reasoning' if you like. How is it not the same thing?

A discussion for another time: I just checked your Joseki 1 and 2 and didn't find a definition of 'heavy' in there. Perhaps you could define it in terms of efficiency, as you suggest, but I think it has more to do with strategic freedom and flexibility on a global scale. The number of stones is much less important than the whole board context. One stone can become heavy if the game develops so that it has no effective way to move and giving it up would entail losing the game.

P.S. Your new book arrived today and I'll start reading it soon. Thanks!
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Re: Logical players, intuitive players ..

Post by RobertJasiek »

gogameguru wrote:1. If intuition doesn't exist in any way shape or form, then both people and dogs don't have intuition. How is it that they know where to run to catch balls? Are dogs reasoning logically? Are they doing calculus? Are they some sort of automaton?


Balls have size, location, speed, way of movement. An animal observes and stores these parameters. Then it uses this "database" knowledge and fits the currently flowing ball's parameters with (according to the quality of the database) the best match and acts accordingly. If there is no database and it is the first ball catch, then less useful knowledge about moving objects, arms and legs is consulted.

2. Are you able to drive a car?


I do not know; I use a bike.

Do you have to make hundreds of mathematical calculations while driving and, if so, how can you do them so quickly?


Database knowledge. (This is a simplification; there are also related "rules" or "principles".) Quickly: the human is very quick for the things it is familiar with. Why? Because neural nets process highly parallel.

If intuition really is figment of my imagination, I must be some kind of crazed idiot,


No, it just means, IMO, that you have not studied your own thinking process analytically in as careful detail yet. Maybe you lack the ability of such analytical thinking to understand your "subconsience" better than by the excuse word "intuition".

somehow, I manage to play as a 7 dan on Tygem. How is this possible?


Because your brain uses lots of subconcious decision making you conscious thinking is not aware of explicitly.

Then what should we call the ability to instantaneously apply accumulated experience?


See above.

Why can't we call that process intuition?


It is like calling a computer a "mystic black box", which would be nothing but an excuse for not bothering to study how it really works. "Intuition" and "instinct" are excuses for not studying the details of thinking.

We can use your term 'rough reasoning' if you like. How is it not the same thing?


"Intuition" comes with the implied notion of being magic. "Reasoning" is explicit about the (by me assumed) nature of thinking processes.

I just checked your Joseki 1 and 2 and didn't find a definition of 'heavy' in there.


Heavy is "overconcentrated and currently without local life". For overconcentrated, see Joseki 2, p. 42. I know, I have not provided a strict definition for it; in the book, I have concentrated on defining strictly part of the more difficult terms. The book's description "stones situated closely together and one could remove a part of them without hurting the group involved" is good enough for the purpose of the book and indicates how to approach a strict definition, if one needs it.

Perhaps you could define it in terms of efficiency, as you suggest, but I think it has more to do with strategic freedom and flexibility on a global scale.


This is an implication from "currently without local life", because it implies the player's need for defense or sacrifice in the global context.

The number of stones is much less important than the whole board context.


A definition along the line suggested above does not prevent one from doing global positional judgement, which includes the heavy group and its positional context.
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Re: Logical players, intuitive players ..

Post by rhubarb »

There are so many ways we could understand a "logic/intuition" distinction. Maybe we can profitably rename some of them.

[TL;DR: Nixon, and either we need more polls or almost everyone should probably vote Nixon.]

Sticking for the moment to the pandanet article linked in the OP, they characterize the distinction in terms of whether the player can explain or likes to discuss reasons for playing a given move (this is interpolating a bit). So it sounds like we've got something like a verbal/nonverbal distinction. But it's not totally clear to me how this is to be cashed out either in play or in study.

(Aside: as someone who always got stuck out of the way in right field, I like their idea that people who are good at math are the same people who are good at sports.)

But the article also has a bit of a weird mix between talking about learning styles and talking about playing styles. The above is a bit more toward the playing end of the spectrum, if we're interpolating the bit about discussing specific moves. So let's go the other way: they could have a distinction between learning via explicit and/or principled reasoning vs learning via example. So we might more suggestively talk about a distinction between learning a trade and developing a taste.

Actually, it almost sounds in the article like the distinction is between people who try hard to learn and people who don't--but that's a silly distinction so I'm not bolding it.

It seems at least from the first page of posts that most people here have in mind something more about playing habits--roughly, how do you read? There are lots of nice distinctions we could have here: maybe intuition gives you better breadth and logic gives you better depth in your search for a line of play. Put another way, are you more likely to miss the long-term consequences of your play, or do you have lots of short-term blindspots?

Or maybe we're interested in comparing vices. Maybe the question here is: are you more sloppy (intuitive/not logical) or unimaginative (logical/not intuitive)?

We could go on. It might be fun.

Anyway, as a start, that's at least four possible distinctions we could have in mind. We've also seen some discussion about what exactly "intuition" might mean here--but can we maybe worry about "logic," too? [Disclaimer: logic is sorta kinda an area of research for me, so the word may mean totally different things to me and to normal English speakers.] You can't play go without being a logical thinker. Any intuition relevant to go is logical intuition. Logic gives you the consequences of your moves; part of the beauty of go is that logic is all you need to derive the consequences of your moves. It's all logic! If you're a go player, you're a logical player! Or maybe you choose your moves with dice, I guess.

OK, I'll go back to lurking now. Hope I don't sound too cranky.
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Re: Logical players, intuitive players ..

Post by lemmata »

rhubarb wrote:part of the beauty of go is that logic is all you need to derive the consequences of your moves.
Logic, a piece of paper longer than the universe is wide, and more pencils than the universe has protons and neutrons. You might need less paper and fewer pencils if you start playing a purely logical style near the end of the game. I guess I'm being facetious.
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Re: Logical players, intuitive players ..

Post by lemmata »

arbitrary interpretation of what gogameguru wrote:What if we define intuition as a signal produced by an implicit biological computation process that has been improved upon by evolutionary pressures and Bayesian updating? Under such theories, trusting intuition is just a logical decision to take advantage of this process instead of using explicit computation in situations where the former is more efficient than the latter.
Cool theory.
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Re: Logical players, intuitive players ..

Post by hyperpape »

RobertJasiek wrote:I wish I could ask the "intuitive" players how they learn, but, lacking logic, maybe they can't? I ask because I have also countless teaching by example books (with useless text if any) for intuitive players and want to learn more from them than I can so far. How? (Note: IMO, intuition does not exist. So advice of the kind "apply your intuition" won't work.) emphasis added
Robert Jasiek wrote:
jts wrote: wrote:
What do you take "intuition" to mean?
It is a pretence for laziness not to perceive or explain things carefully.
Speaking of pretenses for laziness, I assume that your comments indicate a carefully reasoned criticism of dual-process theories in psychology? If so, I would like to read it.

Edit: fixed quote tags, moved emphasis added note
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Re: Logical players, intuitive players ..

Post by hyperpape »

In the past, I have written a bit about intuition, since it is the case that philosophers make heavy appeal to intuitions in defending their theories, and it is not obvious that these intuitions are sufficiently good evidence for the claims they are used to defend (see Philosophical Intuitions and Scepticism about Judgment for the most prominent attempt to deny this claim).

My view is that it is best to think of intuition as an inclination to believe something without being able to state clearly what one's evidence for it is (this is almost but not quite Marc Lynch's definition in "Trusting Intuition" (not available online, but summarized here). This includes both absolute crap like the gambler's hunch that the roulette wheel will come up black next, and the fireman's sense that the house is going to explode in flames.

Some intuitions are capable of being eliminated. Firemen study the signs of backdrafts and flashovers, and have some degree of understanding of the physical processes involved. Thus, a fireman may suddenly intuit that the house is about to explode, and later realize that he had seen such and such signs which he had perceived. This type of post-hoc reconstruction of reasoning is often confabulated, but that doesn't mean it can't ever be accurate.

Other intuitions may not be eliminable. Often, what happens is that one intuition, i.e. that this extension is too wide, is capable of being eliminated in favor of other intuitions, i.e. that after a particular invasion, White will get a good result.

All of this bears some relation to things that psychologists talk about, like fast, subconscious heuristic based processes, versus slow, conscious rule based processes. But it's also slightly orthogonal. You can think about things and slowly develop intuitions--it comes to seem a certain way, but you still cannot state any particular reasons. Also you can have intuitions about very sophisticated things like mathematical theorems.

In the case of Go, what we're really talking about is different blends of intuition and calculation/logic. Any time we read, we're doing a great deal of filtering of moves, ignoring lines, things like that. Much of that can be classified as relying on intuition. But then there's also the phenomenon of deciding upon a particular invasion point without reading the followups.

In any case, it's not so clear what the original article was talking about. Takemiya's comments about playing a "natural" style of go with moves that appeal to you came to mind.

P.S. Lemmata: knowledge without justification is a somewhat tendentious definition of intuition. Some people may think intuited propositions can count as things we are justified in believing. See Reliabilism for an easy route there to that claim.
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Re: Logical players, intuitive players ..

Post by rhubarb »

lemmata wrote:
rhubarb wrote:part of the beauty of go is that logic is all you need to derive the consequences of your moves.
Logic, a piece of paper longer than the universe is wide, and more pencils than the universe has protons and neutrons. You might need less paper and fewer pencils if you start playing a purely logical style near the end of the game. I guess I'm being facetious.


Fair enough. I should have said "all Laplace's demon needs...," or maybe something about the logic of discovery vs the logic of justification.

But I still have my same gripe about what "a purely logical style" could possibly be.

hyperpape wrote:knowledge without justification is a somewhat tendentious definition of intuition. Some people may think intuited propositions can count as things we are justified in believing. See Reliabilism for an easy route there to that claim.


Well, this depends on your reliabilism. Goldman's reliabilism certainly seems to be about providing an account of justification, but then there are people like Dretske who think justification is just the wrong thing for epistemologists to care about. (NB, Goldman wrote the SEP article you link to.) Anyway, I guess I'm bringing this up because reliabilism is where I'd look for someone who denies that intuition can be a source of justification--doesn't everyone else who believes in a faculty of intuition believe it's a source of justification? Oh, and the other reason is because hey I'm a philosopher too! let's talk philosophy!
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Re: Logical players, intuitive players ..

Post by shapenaji »

RJ,

Do you argue that the subconscious mind plays no role in our thought process?

Intuition may be a logical process, but given the lack of interaction between subconscious and conscious, our choice to trust our subconscious is NOT logical.

Doesn't that seem odd to you?
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Re: Logical players, intuitive players ..

Post by hyperpape »

rhubarb wrote:Well, this depends on your reliabilism. Goldman's reliabilism certainly seems to be about providing an account of justification, but then there are people like Dretske who think justification is just the wrong thing for epistemologists to care about. (NB, Goldman wrote the SEP article you link to.) Anyway, I guess I'm bringing this up because reliabilism is where I'd look for someone who denies that intuition can be a source of justification--doesn't everyone else who believes in a faculty of intuition believe it's a source of justification? Oh, and the other reason is because hey I'm a philosopher too! let's talk philosophy!
That'll show me to check the author--I thought there was a lot about Goldman in there, even relative to his obvious importance for the subject. I initially had a line in there about how you might deny that beliefs must be justified to be knowledge, but I can never remember what opinions are common in epistemology, or whether I'm using terms the way they're common used (or if there is even any consensus about them).

I think you're right that most people talk about intuitions as justifying beliefs, though I think it's pretty rare to hear contemporary philosophers talk about intuition being anything like a faculty. It's also currently very popular to deny that philosophy relies on intuitions, and that intuition names any important epistemological phenomenon.

And if you stick around, you'll be surprised how often philosophical topics come up on the boards.
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Re: Logical players, intuitive players ..

Post by lemmata »

hyperpape wrote:P.S. Lemmata: knowledge without justification is a somewhat tendentious definition of intuition. Some people may think intuited propositions can count as things we are justified in believing. See Reliabilism for an easy route there to that claim.

That's pretty interesting. Just to share my personal view: "Knowledge" is my personally preferred label for logical tautologies whose proofs are available. I could call it wowledge or unicornedge, which is what I do if I find myself in a debate with a person who disagrees with my definition of knowledge (i.e., "Okay, I'll agree to use your definition of knowledge. I guess I do know X after all like you said before. But I still don't unicorn X.").

I am not a philosopher myself, and come in touch with epistemology mostly from the mathematics side, which probably biases (and limits!) my views (and labelling preferences) in a particular direction.

That said, I was just being facetious with my little post about intuition and meant nothing serious by it. I suppose that the survey would have generated different replies had it just asked "Which do you use more when playing go? Your gut or your reading?" I would have preferred that wording though because people disagree more about the definition of intuition than they do about the definition of gut feeling.

EDIT: P.S., In reality, all of this is just meaningless posturing on my part. In real life, I say I know something when I feel like it. I just like to pretend that I don't. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Logical players, intuitive players ..

Post by RobertJasiek »

hyperpape wrote:can have intuitions about very sophisticated things like mathematical theorems.


Having worked on similar things, my experience is: solutions do not fall into one's mind out of nothing but they are the result of hard work and hard thinking. Even when I awoke with a dream reasoning about further factual progress, it was because I had spent months thinking all day on the topic and trained my brain to better find solutions.

Much of that can be classified as relying on intuition.


Approximation. What is not close enough is filtered; only what is close enough remains for more careful consideration. If only one move is close enough, then one is tempted to call it "intuition".
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Re: Logical players, intuitive players ..

Post by RobertJasiek »

shapenaji wrote:Do you argue that the subconscious mind plays no role in our thought process?


As said earlier, I do not make this argument.

Sometimes I can grasp my usually subconscious thinking a few levels below the conscious thinking and it works with reasoning, too. Only the "vocabulary" is of lower level nature, like assembler instead of a high programming language.

IMO, subconscious thinking also relies on reasoning. Of course, I can't prove it down to the neural net's level:)

given the lack of interaction between subconscious and conscious,


Not a lack of interaction but a scarcity of top level human mind's understanding of lower thinking levels in terms of our usual natural language thinking.

our choice to trust our subconscious is NOT logical.


I think it is logical:)
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Re: Logical players, intuitive players ..

Post by gogameguru »

RobertJasiek wrote:Database knowledge. (This is a simplification; there are also related "rules" or "principles".) Quickly: the human is very quick for the things it is familiar with. Why? Because neural nets process highly parallel.
Your definition of 'intuition' will suffice. ;)
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Re: Logical players, intuitive players ..

Post by daal »

RobertJasiek wrote:
IMO, subconscious thinking also relies on reasoning.


Perhaps, but there's no telling if its reasoning has the goal of winning a go game. Maybe its plan is to make you look cool, or to keep you from getting hurt, or to remind you what your father thinks of you, or to make sure that you're done in time for a date etc.
Patience, grasshopper.
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