Why does this forum not have a policy against self-promotion

[RobertJasiek]

topazg, there is an easy solution: enforce that not only I need to start new threads but that everybody needs to start new threads. Currently thread splitting tends to be "thread X sees person A discussing my books in rather thread-unrelated manner, I reply, lively discussion evolves, moderator shifts messages starting from my reply to new thread Y, impression is left behind that always I would be the one to derail the original thread". It should be "thread X sees person A discussing my books in rather thread-unrelated manner, moderator shifts message to thread Y".

I do not comply with an expectation of being the "remote thread guy" who starts new threads all the time while everybody else continues to write in the old thread. Either everybody and the moderators are firm and consistent about starting new threads early - or nobody (not even I).

E.g., there would be every reason to have the ko definition topic or the Is all my theory harmful topic discussed in separate threads. Why do moderators not become active in such obvious cases? Because it was not me starting to derail?

In the rec.games.go days, I was one of those more willing to start new thread titles compared to the average poster. It just does not encourage everybody to do likewise. If you moderators want more frequent thread changes, then enforce it for everybody!

Be fair to all users, not just to everybody except me!

I know that there are complaints. Have you also considered why I do not complain as much about others' writing styles (unless I am already put in a defensive position)? I can tolerate them even if I dislike some. Not the one crying the loudest "I complain" is right. Fairness to everybody is a better measure.

[topazg]

I assure you we (or at least I) don't see you as a special case. You are the most consistent and worst offender at thread derailment, and following two formal reports on the same thread I decided to split the Japanese literature thread, for which I received thanks both from the OP and from another individual. In that instance, I feel the responses have left my actions justified (which is the general yardstick I use).

Yours isn't the only case to have been split, but it one of the more blatant needs for it when such circumstances have arisen.

In most cases, the issue is down to respecting the OP - if we wants a specific discussion and you find a sideways or meta-discussion more interesting, that's fine by everyone, but it deserves its own thread. Sometimes there are borderline cases which we happily allow to slide, but when more than one user starts using the inbuilt complaint system about it, in addition to complaining comments by others in the thread itself, action gets taken.

If you can live with that, great, but just as you don't want your signature dictated to you (I fully agree with your sig being your choice), we don't want our policies dictated to us - actually, we don't mind if they are, we just may not to choose to take notice

[RobertJasiek]

Does this mean that also I should START using the complaint system just to get what could be, IMO, a relatively fairer treatment?

[topazg]

Does this mean that also I should START using the complaint system just to get what could be, IMO, a relatively fairer treatment?

Yes, that's what it's there for

[HermanHiddema]

IMO, you should generally use the report system if you feel that a post is in violation of the forum rules and needs moderator/admin intervention. That is what it is for, because the mods cannot be everywhere and cannot be expected to read everything posted.

[hyperpape]

There have been a handful of comments directed towards you that I viewed as borderline abusive/violations of the TOS. I myself mulled over whether to report them (I believe I have only reported two or three posts ever that were not spam) and decided not to do so. If you had done so, it would not have been objectionable.

I would say the majority of posts are not worthy of the report function. Many things are undesirable on the forums even if they are not reportable.

[Bill Spight]

Titles by Bill Spight:

Gone with the Mind

Life Sucks, So Quitcher Bitchin:
A Guide to Rational Emotive Therapy

Evolution Now!

When in Doubt, Tenuki

Do It Yourself Cryogenics:
Many are Cold, Few are Frozen

No books, just titles.

Bitcoin accepted.

[Joaz Banbeck]

Please buy copies of my new books:


1) The collected games of Jerry Springer, or how to ruin a forum through excessive public arguing.

2) The dummies guide to reporting posts.

I'll sell them cheap. Heck, I'll give away copies for free.

[Aeneas]

I appreciate Robert's contributions to this forum very much. If his posts sometimes lead to a derailment of threads and a poisonous atmosphere, I personally think this is often to a great extent due to the responses of other people who would benefit their own cause better by reporting to administrators than by polluting the threads with metadiscussions about the relevance of Robert's posts.

Also, I am amazed at the lack of tolerance towards a man who through his books (as well as his teaching and, as I see it, through his posts here) is clearly contributing a lot to the go community, certainly much more than most of us.

Some people apparently see self-promotion, where I see the promotion of books worth promoting. To me, anyone who has spent the time and effort to write a book for the go community, has earned the right to promote his books wherever relevant. And I think Robert's books are indeed relevant in a lot of threads. I have bought three myself and read two.

[Lamp]

In that thread, BEFORE palapiku's questioning of all theory in my books, I mentioned "it is such a nice concept that I will write at least one book about it", but did NOT mention my existing books (or even advertise them).

Stay to the facts! Then reconsider whether you want me to disallow a proper reply to palapiku's message and whether you want to disallow everybody else in a similar position to defend himself.

It appears you did not read my post. This is one of the leading sources of arguments starting - not paying attention to what is said. I said specifically that you were justified in responding to palapiku.

I think "hostility" is a too strong word. It is more "intolerance". Think about it who is being intolerant.

You're implying that I'm the intolerant one, but in fact it is everybody, including myself and you as well. Many of the people on the forum are intolerant of your constant advertising and denigrating of competitors' products. You're intolerant of people who don't like seeing your posts. Everybody's intolerant.

Not you decide about relevance of contents in my messages, but I decide. When I think that some of my books are relevant, then I might choose to mention them (and possibly the relevant chapters).

Actually the forum administrators decide. But if they decide that you should be allowed to continue spamming your books in every thread, then so be it. That is their will and neither I nor you are in a position to argue with them about how to run their forum. But, you know, generally it's in everyone's best interest for a forum to have high quality discussion (not as decided by 1 person, but as decided by the majority of the users on the forum), responsible members, and very little thread derailing. It makes more people want to stay active in the forum, and encourages new members to post without fear of their thread turning into an argument. But I guess this point is lost here.

So yea, you're free to do whatever you want within the rules of the forum. I'm merely questioning those very rules. And if they end up in such a way that I don't agree with them, I simply won't visit anymore. I'm sure you won't miss me, but at the same time I won't miss you derailing every thread into an argument either. I wonder if I'm the only one.

It's unfortunate because at least one of your books is actually good. It's a shame you haven't figured out how to balance your passion for your books with a common sense understanding of forum etiquette and "How Not To Scare Away Potential Customers 101"

[HermanHiddema]

Some people apparently see self-promotion, where I see the promotion of books worth promoting. To me, anyone who has spent the time and effort to write a book for the go community, has earned the right to promote his books wherever relevant. And I think Robert's books are indeed relevant in a lot of threads. I have bought three myself and read two.

Please, then, promote Robert's books!

A book worth promoting will generally be recommended by its readers.

If only the author promotes a book, that is major red flag, and is usually an indication that the book isn't any good.

[RobertJasiek]

Everybody's intolerant.

A refreshing new perspective:)

you derailing every thread into an argument either.

Sorry, but I do not let such myths spread without at least disagreeing to them. - Many users move threads in various new directions; I am by far not the only one who likes evolution of discussion.

you haven't figured out how to balance your passion for your books with a common sense understanding of forum etiquette and "How Not To Scare Away Potential Customers 101"

When you suggest "Author of books on Shape, Joseki, and Fundamentals", you show that you have not fully grasped the potential of my books' contents. When I think that somebody asking for books on a topic (such as playing elsewhere or leaning attacks, see viewtopic.php?p=109420#p109420 ) would not know or equally underestimate the contents, then silence is the wrong answer. It can help to point out when books are useful also in the middle game etc., especially when other Western books on a topic are scarce.

[Aeneas]

Please, then, promote Robert's books!

You missed my point, I think. But that aside: Haven't I just done so?

[Javaness2]

Maybe some suggestions for a new forum rule around advertising / product placement could be made? Then we could take a vote on which one we wanted to put in place.

[Phelan]

I would be very much against a blanket ban on self promotion on this forum, since Go players are a small community as it is, and self-promotion is how I usually find pretty interesting things from members.
(Just recently found out about Aji's Quest that way)

As for Robert Jasiek, while I think he should be more humble in talking about his works, ultimately, it's his choice how he presents himself and his books, not mine.