#171 Hyperpape vs. illluck

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hyperpape
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Re: #171 Hyperpape vs. illluck

Post by hyperpape »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm50
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . O . . X 5 O 1 3 4 X O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 6 X 2 X 7 O O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . . X . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This gives Black a lot in the center.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm50
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . 4 7 . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . O . . X 6 O 2 5 . X O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X 1 X . O O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 3 . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . . X . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Quite awkward to handle for White.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm40
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . 6 . . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . O . . X 2 O 4 . . X O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 1 X 3 X . O O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 5 . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . . X . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
There are interesting options after this.
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hyperpape
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Re: #171 Hyperpape vs. illluck

Post by hyperpape »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm50
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . O . . X . O 1 . . X O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . X . O O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . . X . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Decided on this. The territory is big, and White still can probably get his head out in the center well enough to handle things. In particular, if I carve out Black's eyespace, he can't easily build anything in the center because he'll have to care for his group. There is also a nice ko for Black when he wants it, but it's a very hard ko for Black to win, so I don't feel that bad about it.
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illluck
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Re: #171 Hyperpape vs. illluck

Post by illluck »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm50
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . O . . X . O O . . X O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X 2 X . O O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . . X . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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hyperpape
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Re: #171 Hyperpape vs. illluck

Post by hyperpape »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm50
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . O . . X 3 O O . . X O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X 2 X . O O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . . X . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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illluck
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Re: #171 Hyperpape vs. illluck

Post by illluck »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm50
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . O . . X 3 O O . . X O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 4 X 2 X . O O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . . X . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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hyperpape
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Re: #171 Hyperpape vs. illluck

Post by hyperpape »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm50
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . O . . X O O O 5 . X O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X X X X . O O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . . X . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
So many exciting things to say!
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The Intrepid
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Re: #171 Hyperpape vs. illluck

Post by The Intrepid »

The size of Black's moyo in the center got a bit out of hand. How will White try to reduce it? Is this the plan? :D
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm50
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . O . . X O O O 5 7 X O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X X X X 6 O O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 8 X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 9 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . . X . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.
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illluck
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Re: #171 Hyperpape vs. illluck

Post by illluck »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm50
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . O . . X O O O 5 7 X O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X X X X 6 O O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 8 X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . . X . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Feel free to reject trigger.

I considered also the hane, but then after white cuts the two stones are dead and there's not many useful forcing moves from those stones. This way I get to patch up my outside.

p.s. I'd be happy to answer questions if anyone wants more details over my thought process :)
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hyperpape
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Re: #171 Hyperpape vs. illluck

Post by hyperpape »

Hey, that's a big trade! I should count, and read. I didn't actually anticipate this :b55: even though it's probably better for B than what I'd read.
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The Intrepid
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Re: #171 Hyperpape vs. illluck

Post by The Intrepid »

@illuck
illluck wrote:I'd be happy to answer questions if anyone wants more details over my thought process :)


What do you think about the current position (in case the trigger is accepted)--e.g., who do you think is ahead, is the lead small or insurmountable, et cetera?
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.
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illluck
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Re: #171 Hyperpape vs. illluck

Post by illluck »

The Intrepid wrote:@illuck
illluck wrote:I'd be happy to answer questions if anyone wants more details over my thought process :)


What do you think about the current position (in case the trigger is accepted)--e.g., who do you think is ahead, is the lead small or insurmountable, et cetera?


I feel cautiously optimistic about my prospects because while the trigger is gote for me white is almost sealed in everywhere with relatively small growth potential. I think in the hands of someone who knows how to attack and use thickness/influence this is a considerable lead, but I'm rather terrible at it and may very well squander it.
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hyperpape
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Re: #171 Hyperpape vs. illluck

Post by hyperpape »

No move yet, but I've been trying to stretch my visualization and memory for Go recently. Last night, I tried to play through this game in my head. Moves 39-41 were jumbled, but otherwise, I can remember the game without a board and visualize the whole thing. Of course, it's not entirely clear--I need to stop and count spaces to remember that 33 is a knight's move, for instance.

In general, outside the corner, spatial relationships are much more difficult. And this says nothing about reading from the completed position. Perhaps I'll have a chance this morning.
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hyperpape
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Re: #171 Hyperpape vs. illluck

Post by hyperpape »

I got myself into a bad situation over the course of the last several moves.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm50 Black has sente
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . O . . X O O O O O X O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X X X X O O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . . X . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I count 40 for White on the top and upper left corner, 13 in the lower left, 10 in the lower right, for a total of 57 63 (edit: old numbers based on a miscount).

For Black, I count 32 in the upper right and right side. That includes the right solid territory in the upper right, and the territory beneath the two space extension, on the assumption that I play to reduce from above and he gets that. Nothing else on the board is black territory yet, solid or otherwise, but Black has massive potential.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm61
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . O . . X O O O O O X O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X X X X O O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . a . . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . . X . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Something like this, and White will have to plunge into the center.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm58 Black has sente
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . O . . X O O O O O X O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X X X X X O O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . # . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . . X . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Choosing moves in a circumstance like this is always quite hard for me. This leaps out at me.
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hyperpape
Tengen
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Re: #171 Hyperpape vs. illluck

Post by hyperpape »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm58
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . O . . X O O O O O X O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X X X X X O O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . . X . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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illluck
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Re: #171 Hyperpape vs. illluck

Post by illluck »

Diagonal, lower right of last move. Posting w/ phone.
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