#180 Splatted vs konfuzed

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konfuzed
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Re: #180 Splatted vs konfuzed

Post by konfuzed »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm15 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . 1 . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This just feels more like "my style" of go. I don't feel confident in my assessment of the "quality" of the positions I've been looking at, but this feels more like the "type" of position I favor. These stones feel a little too heavy/distant from supporting stones, but if he puts pressure on them he will probably have to take risks himself, and I will welcome that fight.
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Re: #180 Splatted vs konfuzed

Post by Splatted »

My initial plan was to steal his extension point at "a" then tenuki if he replies. I feel there's no need to play that out right now because I probably can't get a good result with all the forcing moves he has against my corner, but the aji may be very useful later on. Unfortunately I think that would invite him to link up the marked stones, which would be a disaster. The marked white group would be forced to live small in the corner while black builds influence connecting his weak groups. Right now I'm looking at sente moves I can make around "b" in order to assure my group's access to the centre and keep blacks stones cut. I really wish I'd extended now. If I had I would be looking to profit from the weakness of black's left hand group, rather than just fix my own weaknesses.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm15 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . W W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B W . . W B . . a . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B , . W . B . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: #180 Splatted vs konfuzed

Post by Splatted »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm15 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . X . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I don't like it, but this is the only extension that can't be cut profitably by black. It ensures me access to the centre but doesn't put much pressure on either of blacks groups. I think I will be glad I played it later, but it doesn't feel good now because he will probably get his extension or tenuki and get another big point.
Last edited by Splatted on Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: #180 Splatted vs konfuzed

Post by Splatted »

Some sequences I looked at.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . 1 . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X 3 4 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black makes easy profit from attacking the weakness in white's connection.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O 4 . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , 3 O 8 1 . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X 7 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Not as good for black right now because it weakens the H17 stones, but basically the same thing as above.


This is the sequence I talked about earlier.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O 4 . O X . . 2 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , 3 O . 1 . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black 5 and 1 aren't strictly connected, but a cut is not really feasible right now so Black can happily profit from attacking :w2: .
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Re: #180 Splatted vs konfuzed

Post by konfuzed »

Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable! Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.
Critical decision time. His move puts a bit of pressure on both of my groups and keeps them nice and disconnected, but I don't think it is quite sente against either of them. There are a lot of big fuseki points still, so I feel tempted to tenuki as long as I can read out that my groups can withstand attack reasonably well.


I think I can deal with a splitting attack on the triangled points, but I should probably find some time to do some better reading. Considering an approach in the bottom left or something. My left group doesn't look like it would gain much by expanding to the center, and it's also undercut so it doesn't have so much territory if he squishes it from the bottom. So I would really like to extend down the left side to make good use of it. He has invested all of his stones but 2 into that top left group, and it can't get much territory. Its biggest value comes from splitting my two groups and potentially threatening them. If I can take a major point and still deal with his attack, I think I can gain a point advantage. I know having a weak group is worth a ton of points for my opponent, but I don't want to overconcentrate my stones to protect something that isn't too weak so early in the game.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X . . T . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . X . , T . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . T . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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konfuzed
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Re: #180 Splatted vs konfuzed

Post by konfuzed »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . X . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



My rationale is in the previous post. I think, particularly because of my inexperience, it is important for me to "play the move I want to play". Avoiding a move that feels right to me because "it might be a mistake" is a good way to stagnate. If this leaves one of my groups too weak and I get a bad result, I'll hopefully figure out why it didn't work and learn better habits for future games.
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Re: #180 Splatted vs konfuzed

Post by Splatted »

I was thinking that a and b were basically miai, and I would just attack whichever one he ignored.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm15 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X . . a . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . X . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But making his extension an approach on my corner has changed things slightly. I don't think I can afford to ignore the approach, but I'm also not sure I want to because his left side is very thin and I feel like I should be able to profit from that. He's effectively spoilt my plan, but if my new plan becomes "punish black's overplay, then that may not be such a bad thing.

P.s. My appraisal of the current board position is that black is quite significantly ahead, but I have enough time to make a comeback. (though maybe not enough skill :-? )
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Re: #180 Splatted vs konfuzed

Post by Splatted »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . X . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It's going to take a while to write up my reasons for this move so I just wanted to post the move on it's own first in case Konfuzed happens by.
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Re: #180 Splatted vs konfuzed

Post by konfuzed »

Am I playing against Takemiya? :D
I've wanted to try playing with or against it for a while. I think it's used in an existent framework though. Therefore if I can steal his potential to make a large framework, perhaps it will be inefficient? That is my "snap reaction." Will come up with a "considered reaction" once I have time.

BTW, something I find interesting about his move is that it is the same as starting with a 5-5 (as I have tried on occasion) and forming an enclosure by adding a 4-4, but I have never seen it done with that move order before. Normally, a 5-5 gets a one space extension and another one space extension ( pill box) or a knights move, not a 4-4.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . x . . . . . . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . a b . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . X . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 4 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . X . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Both of my top left groups are feeling a bit awkward to me though. I'm thinking about them, just don't know if/when to add a move, or which move to add.

EDIT: also started considering a 3-3 invasion.
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Re: #180 Splatted vs konfuzed

Post by Splatted »

I don't know who Takemiya is, but I feel a lot better about my move now. :D

Earlier I said I thought black was too thin and was hoping to invade/pincer his approaching stone, but I eventually decided that C6 wasn't an overplay. Blacks not strong, but I'm so weak in that area that he has the advantage (and so is strong in effect). Below are a couple of the sequences that made me realise I had to think of something else. :sad:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . X . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 3 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think it's obvious that this is terrible for white. Black has pretty much connected C11 and C6, and thanks to thanks to C11 :w1: is basically dead; it can't do the normal thing of running of running along the 3rd line and exchanging thickness and influence for territory and life, and even if it can live small, the trade-off of fixing all black's weaknesses just wouldn't be worth it. :w1: was basically a pass.

So what if we extend with the cutting stone instead of defending the corner?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . X . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 4 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This version is more tempting, but I doubt I can make as much attacking the top left as black makes in the bottom corner.

I considered other pincers as well, but they all seemed to have basically the same problems, so I abandoned the whole idea. I'll post the rest of my thoughts, and why I actually played E5, later.
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Re: #180 Splatted vs konfuzed

Post by konfuzed »

@Splatted
Takemiya Masaki is a famous pro who invented that move, or at least its regular use at a high level. He is known for playing sanrensei as black, large moyos, being unconcerned about the early profit his opponents make, tenuki, making unconventionally center-oriented yet equitable exchanges, and is considered the master of the center of the go board. He is popular among amateurs and was one of the absolute strongest players in the world a couple decades ago, which is not to say that he isn't strong today. He is inimitable but that doesn't stop many from trying. Interestingly, I have read that professionals respect him most for his play as white, where his style does not revolve around sanrensei and large moyos.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . X . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Not showing any reading right now because this move was mainly based on feeling. I feel like he is supposed to have this area to build from, so I will take it. Ideally I would like to develop faster than he does while limiting how much he can gain with his thick positions. Right now his board position feels oriented towards the center of the left side of the board. I think this game actually closer than it looks because his stones feel less efficient overall but I feel like my positions have some bad aji/weaknesses whereas his are positioned well to threaten mine and the board state will naturally sway towards him at some point with proper play. I think he can take my top territory and give me thickness, he can keep my left group low and get a strong position in the center, etc.
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Re: #180 Splatted vs konfuzed

Post by Splatted »

(Edit: This was written before konfuzed moved) Continuing from my previous post: I decided invading white's left side didn't work so I needed to decide on another plan of action. My main goals were:

-Gaining sente, because there are still a lot of big points left on the board and I can't afford to let black keep taking them.
-Defending my investment in the corner (which doesn't necessarily mean territory)
-Taking a nice chunk of the bottom side.
-Not allowing black to make lot's of territory while fixing his weaknesses on the side.
-Leaving the possibility of attacking black's side later.

Achieving all of those seems impossible, but I needed to achieve as many as possible. Below are some possibilities I considered.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . X . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The obvious answer, but black's territory is now secure and large. I'm not really sure this wasn't the better move, since it's sente and good preparation for an approach on the bottom right, but I black could play slightly differently.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . X . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . 1 . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White is in risk of being boxed in and the cut is still difficult, though better than before, while black also threatens to take the bottom side.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . X . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 1 3 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 O . . . . . a . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black's wall works well with the marked stone, but white has no corresponding stone at a. It's a bad result locally and it's gote.

Finally I came to the move I actually played. I thought it threatened to cut, but I can't remember the sequence right now. Hopefully that's just because I'm tired... :-? If it does then it's a strong sente, and it also seems to work reasonably well with regards to defending the corner and taking the bottom side.
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Re: #180 Splatted vs konfuzed

Post by Splatted »

Takemiya sounds awesome! I'll add him to the list of players I want to study. :D

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . X . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I can't find the cutting sequence I thought I had earlier, so it was probably a mistake. I think I've been in a bit of a panic since I realised Q10 was a mistake and have been desperately looking for a way to make up for that, so I'm just going to try and forget everything I thought up till now and reavaluate the board position.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 3 . . 3 2 . . a . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 , . 3 . 2 . , . . . 8 . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:w1: was a mistake because it allowed :b2: , but it did have some value; it stops black linking up and creating a large moyo and seems likely to result in some good territory on the right side. I think I was too focused on what I lost on the top and forgot about the compensation I'm going to get on the right.

:b2: works well with :b8: , but for just two lone stones next to a live enemy group, I think it is too far away. A move at "a" would solve this and be very good for black.

:w3: ended up small and mostly boxed in, but thanks to that exchange it is now the only settled group on the board, and though it has some weaknesses ( :b2: can descend at H18 in sente, for example), this could be very significant if any fights break out in the area.

:b4: seems likely to result in a lot of territory for black, but the stones are quite widely spaced, and unlike :b2: and :b7: , there doesn't seem to be a single move to sort this. Black is going to need to patch this up as part of the natural progression of the game.

:w5: I keep alternating between thinking this was a terrible idea and then deciding I like it after all. It's not exactly taking loads of territory, but it seems like it will be useful for any fights that might erupt in the area, and combined with :w3: , makes :b4: seem somewhat uncomfortable.

:b6: is a nice position with lots of breathing space. Both stones can easily afford to be cut so black can expect some good territory in the area.

:b7: I still don't know what to make of this. I tried playing it in some games, but... :scratch:

.....

There seems to be a pretty clear pattern here, and it makes it much easier for me to decide my next move. Black is ahead but has more weaknesses. I may not be able to attack them now, but if I play solidly and end the opening with some strong groups, I think I will be in a good position to go on the offensive in the middle game. With that in mind, I think it's time to decide on my move.


If I want to settle another of my groups it seems best to do it by approaching the bottom right, since I'm not really expecting to be able to attack it later. Right now approaching from either side seems possible, but I'll consider the approach from the right first.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . X . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . a . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The marked white stone is too close, but I think I can omit seven because of it. In which case this looks good for white. It's sente and a move at a looks like it would work well with the white stones on the left to reduce black's moyo.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . X . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . a . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 2 . X . 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm not sure about this. My goal is to play solidly, but the marked white stone is slightly too far away. "a" is a possible extra move that makes the distance seem appropriate, and it is quite big, but I think sente is more important here. I don't think this sequence is as good for black either though, so I think I can be happy with it.

Overall I think the approach from the right works well, but I'll have a look at the left as well.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . X . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 . X . . 2 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This strengthens the marked white stones and makes a nice chunk of territory, which is good, but I don't think it's as good as the other approach because the Q10 stone seems more important right now. The marked stones are ready for a fight, but the Q10 stone is alone, and an approach on it would force me to move in the other direction to make a base and allow black to strengthen himself on both sides. For example

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . X . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It might not be that bad, since responding my approach on the bottom is also big, but after that I don't think I can settle Q10 so easily because the approach on the bottom right corner is no longer as threatening.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . X . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 . X . . 2 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Or Black might just tenuki at 4. I've decided I definitely like the other approach better.
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konfuzed
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Re: #180 Splatted vs konfuzed

Post by konfuzed »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . X . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . 5 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The large knight looks like it makes better shape, and gives him a worse result if he tries to split the corner in the typical way. Plus if he tenukis I can make a large corner here later. I am worried about him being able to press down on my bottom and left groups. Somehow when I look at this board I think "He can gain a very substantial center if I'm not careful". I feel like I have no groups that are critically weak, but I have several places where he stands to make significant gains.
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Splatted
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Re: #180 Splatted vs konfuzed

Post by Splatted »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17 19x19 board
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . X . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm going to resist the temptation to re-think this. I have a plan so I'm just going to stick to it. Obviously there are some differences between what he played and the slightly closer extensions at O3 or 4, but they don't really effect this move.
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