Tami's Way

[Tami]

Aping pro fuseki does not seem so bad to me. You must be familiar with the moves to learn about them, it seems to me.

Yes, agreed. I meant that even if you don`t know how to use it like an expert, carrying a samurai sword about still makes you very dangerous to other people (and maybe a bit to yourself too). So it would be with pro fuseki.

[RobertJasiek]

the bringing everything together workably, I think, is something that comes naturally as learning is absorbed. You cannot force it, because I don`t think anybody can consciously carry around enough principles to do so; rather, the right principle comes to mind when the situation arises.

As explained elsewhere, I disagree.

Or perhaps your system is perpetually present in your waking mind?

Yes. Most of it as references I can look up explicitly when needed (e.g., when a strategic concept is applicable, I look up the related principles).

top-down from principles

You keep talking about top-down, but it is not only top-down. It can also be bottom-up, a combination of both etc.

IMO, your disappointment with principle application is a premature prejudice. Presumably you have read books with weak and unordered principles instead of books teaching principles well.

[Tami]

grrrrr

[RobertJasiek]

I understand your frustration with learning principles from books. Good ones are still scarce and so there are many gaps. One needs to fill those gaps by oneself. Besides the effort part of solving problems and playing through games and openings, that's what I did when reading hundreds of books (seeking everything I could get) to improve quickly from 5k to 3d. Your 2 ranks in 10 years might mainly be the consequence of much less invested time per day, effort and literature consumption.

The principles I reinvented for myself up to about 3d were an important part of what made me 3d. My frustration was: Those principles were still weak, flawed and pretty unstructured (and worst of all: not available explicitly in Western literature [nor implicitly by consistent application in available Asian literature] at that time). Only later (3d to 5d and afterwards), I could invent (rather than reinvent) better, mightier and better structured principles (and other methods).

What can this mean for you? Besides the obvious advice nowadays, you must try to reinvent and improve on the quality and structure of your reinvented principles (or those luckily found in books). For you, this applies at least to your desire to understand reasoning. For your belief in the power of your unconscious thinking, eh, nobody can help you beyond suggesting more invested time and effort, so good luck with that part!;)

[Tami]

Dear Robert, I`m not sure we`re always on the same page in our discussions. It is obvious, however, that you want to help, and I am sincerely grateful for that.

I think:

* principles are extremely useful

but also that

* it`s your unconscious mind that sorts, relates and synthesises learned principles with logic, taste, experience, examples and thousands of other elements to produce a working "system". This is supported by cognitive psychological theory. That`s not to argue that you cannot or should not apply principles consciously, only that a lot of the work is done before a thought enters your head. (How else could anybody speak a language fluently or play a musical instrument or play a game as quickly as you do?)

and also that

* you must take each position as it comes

I`m not an expert on go literature, but it seems to me that you are quite correct when you say there is much missing from the Western literature. I learned all I know from reading English books and from lessons with breakfast, but I always felt that these sources were not giving me the whole picture. Gradually, I`ve become able to read Japanese, and now I`m discovering a lot of principles and concepts that I was not previously aware of.

That`s not to say that your work is not needed or valuable. It`s simply that there is a lot of good stuff in the MyCom books and other sources, and it`s changing my way of thinking. For people who cannot read Japanese, they`d definitely be better off reading your books. But my go book reviews are for two purposes: 1) to give a heads up to people who can read Japanese and want to know somebody`s opinions about various books on sale and 2) to serve the selfish end of helping me review what I have learned.

So, there you go, I am glad you are writing original and interesting books, and I plan to read them, but please try not to seem as though you resent famous 9-dan professionals for having the temerity to write their own books, particularly when you have only short, amateurishly translated excerpts to judge them by. It`s not fair to them, and not fair to yourself. The Garden of Go is big enough for everybody, and nobody is going to cut down your flowers simply because they happen to like somebody else`s.

[RobertJasiek]

* it`s your unconscious mind that sorts, relates and synthesises learned principles with logic, taste, experience, examples and thousands of other elements to produce a working "system".

Presumably the unconscious mind does such things. The conscious mind can do the same, but slower and as exact as necessary.

This is supported by cognitive psychological theory.

What does cognitive psychological theory say about a) the conscious mind doing such things,
b) how the conscious mind benefits from the unconscious mind's activity?

How else could anybody speak a language fluently

By applying vocabulary and grammar rules quickly:)

or play a musical instrument

I don't know.

or play a game as quickly as you do?

By applying knowledge quickly. The human mind can be very fast for things it knows very well.

* you must take each position as it comes

I prefer to create only positions that I want. In fast games (such as almost all online games), this is not always possible. Then I analyse the position.

these sources were not giving me the whole picture.

Vary your teachers, read more books.

Gradually, I`ve become able to read Japanese, and now I`m discovering a lot of principles and concepts that I was not previously aware of.

I am not convinced that one needs to learn Japanese for that. IIRC, the principles you have mentioned can be extracted from go diagrams.

try not to seem as though you resent famous 9-dan professionals for having the temerity to write their own books, particularly when you have only short, amateurishly translated excerpts to judge them by.

Haven't you noticed that I have given Ishida's book a chance to be possibly identified as more detailed than mine? It has been my intention to find out, but your description has not convinced me so far. The problem is NOT your translation, but is the missing clarification of the nature of the "principles" and the intended meaning of "flexible" as an example of a move characterisation. Is it a book teaching by examples and the reader has to decide whether potential principles are applicable in general - or is it a book teaching also by principles stated explicitly as such so that the reader does not need extra effort to generalise? If so, which of the 3-4 low and high approach principles are stated as being general?

The Garden of Go is big enough for everybody, and nobody is going to cut down your flowers simply because they happen to like somebody else`s.

You are misinterpreting my motivations for discussing Ishida's book:
- Which is its teaching style?
- Is it or how is it teaching principles?
- How detailed does it go into explaining theory?
- Are you correct that Japanese is required to understand the reasoning explained in the book?
- What is the quality of the contents (rather than the known playing strength and fame of the author)?

For myself, I am just curious. For others, I think that they would get a better ground for decision making whether they should buy his book.

I have another motivation: as an author of related books I am interested in verifying, comparing and possibly further developing the theory.

You are currently studying also josekis, it seems. So you like to emphasise examples related to josekis. In your review, you have done that. Now, I have tried to discuss the emphasised by you with the motivations above, and my related knowledge allows me to enter the topic deeply. If you had emphasised a different topic, which I also knew, then I would have discussed that and, if I could, would also have cited relevant literature, which then need not be my own. I think you have misinterpreted the coincidence, but I do not not discuss something just because I have written about it and can cite from my own work. I also do not omit relevant citations just to reduce the chance for misunderstandings of motivations. Likewise, I do not try to interpret your "grrrrr"; it could mean everything from being angry about yourself, about me or making a joke. Motivations are hard to guess, therefore it is better not to make too fast assumptions about them.

[oren]

I am not convinced that one needs to learn Japanese for that. IIRC, the principles you have mentioned can be extracted from go diagrams.

As someone who reads Japanese and Japanese go books quite frequently, I think you are wrong here. There is a lot of text for a reason in these books. They're not all right/wrong answers, and the text can explain the problem starts on move x in the middle of the diagram. I don't know how you would get all the meaning from a go book without understanding the language the go book is in.

[RobertJasiek]

I don't know how you would get all the meaning from a go book without understanding the language the go book is in.

If the diagrams show what the text says, then it is easy for me. How? I want to understand a diagram and its moves and invent reasons until I find some well fitting ones.

If the text is not about numbers and has much more than the diagrams show, then I have no chance.

Distinguishing good from bad moves often is easy. From 3k to 1k, I had problems with that in Asian books; afterwards hardly.

[oren]

Distinguishing good from bad moves often is easy. From 3k to 1k, I had problems with that in Asian books; afterwards hardly.

Then I would say you're missing the point of the book.

Why do you bother with words in your book then? It seems superfluous if you believe diagrams alone are fine.

[RobertJasiek]

Why do you bother with words in your book then? It seems superfluous if you believe diagrams alone are fine.

Not every player shares the skill to understand diagrams without text.

It is all a matter of quality of the text's contents. Good text can add more information than the diagrams convey. Generalised text such as in principles or methods can be more accurate etc. than a learning reader can infer from the diagrams.

Needless to say, the text in my books has quality beyond what the diagrams show.

Whether that is so also in Ishida's book is up to your or Tami's explanation.

[Tami]

The text in Ishida`s book consists of two main elements: at the beginning of the chapter, he states the principles he wishes the reader to grasp; after that, there are theme diagrams in which you are asked to choose the correct continuation.

He is a further example of his writing:

p. 34

大場の見つけ方
大場は、次のポイントで見つけることができます。

地の接点が大きい

黒から打てば黒地が増え、逆に白から打てば白地が増えるところが大きく、「地の接点」といいます。本章は、「接点」を理解していただくことが一番の目的です。

両翼を意識する

1図のように、隅の構えから両方向にヒラク構えを、両翼といいます。非常に良い構えので、両翼を目指したり、相手の両翼を防ぐ手が大きいです。また、両翼とまではいえないまでも、全体の石が連係するように打つことも大切。

小ゲイマジマリの背中に注意！

小目の小ゲイマジマリは、「シマリの背中」の価値が高くなります。つまり、２図のほうに発展性があり、価値が高くなるのです。全体の配置によりますが、通常は a よりも黒１のほうが大きい手になります。

How to Find Big Points
The next theme is to be able to find big points.

The Meeting Point of Territories
A place where if played from Black would increase Black`s territory, or conversely where if played from White would increase White`s territory is big. It is called the "meeting point of territories". The most important aim of this chapter is that you grasp the meaning of such a "meeting point".

To be aware of the Double Wing
As in Fig. 1, extensions that add to a corner in both directions is called a "double wing". As it is an extremely good point, aiming at a double wing [of your own] and preventing the opponent`s is a big move. Further, although you cannot go so far as to [equate?] it to a double wing, to play to connect all your stones is also important.

Watch the Small Knight`s Enclosure`s Back!
With the small knight`s enclosure, the back [i.e., the extension in front of it] of the enclosure becomes very valuable. That is to say, to have the development shown in Fig. 2 is of high value. It depends on the overall position, but usually the [indicated] move is a bigger one than the play at "a" [the other extension].

There, you have several principles:

* A mutually big point is very big
* Making or preventing a double wing is very big
* Connecting your groups is very important
* Extending in front of the small knight`s enclosure is very big
* Depending on circumstances, extending in the other direction can also be big

In the chapter that follows this brief exposition, Ishida shows us how to apply these principles allowing for the tactical and strategic qualities of each theme position. Sometimes it`s easy to follow the principles, and at other times you have to make a more finely tuned judgement. While Ishida concentrates on these principles, he introduces more along the way, such as "Play so that the opponent cannot invade and make a two-space base" (actually stated as 黒の連係がよくなり、白から右辺のどこに入っても、二間にヒラク余地がありません - because Black`s connection [between corners] has become good, no matter where White comes in, there is no leeway for a two-space base).

So, what you don`t have is lots and lots of "micro-principles" to cover every conceivable situation. Neither is Ishida dogmatic, while he gives his guidelines for finding a big move, his examples show that you also have to judge each position on its merits.

To be sure, the principles listed above are not especially new to me, but it was good to be reminded of them and to have them illustrated deeply. That has improved my understanding. Moreover, the Ishida book also contains material that is new to me, such as the advice on when how to choose an approach move, and in some of the tesuji he shows in the variations.

Actually, if new principles and the like are of interest, then I think Mimura Tomoyasu`s book (三村流布石の虎の巻 Mimura-style Fuseki Bible) would be worth looking at, although I have no idea what interpretation you`d make of it without reading the text. As an example, but only one, I will provide this quotation: "The point of an `Attacking Fuseki` is that by expanding your moyo to a greater scale than your opponent you cause them to intrude first [so you can attack and consolidate], and, of course, the sanrensei being easy to expand is very powerful for this". For me, this is a big eye-opener, because in the past I have often constructed a moyo, thought of it as a springboard for invading my opponent, and been ripped up without profit in consequence. I`m happy now to have a book that explains how to be consistent, instead of simply telling you that you have to be consistent.

I have not read your book, yet, but from the sample pages on your web site it seems that you have developed an elaborate system. It looks very interesting, and to be quite frank the Japanese books I have been reading do not take such an approach. Where they excel, for me, is in showing some useful principles and in using tactical reading and overall board judgement to apply them. I suspect that your approach might be simply too systemic, but I`m not in a position yet to decide on that.

Okay, that`s enough of this. I just don`t have the time to burn. If you want to get really deep and critical with the Japanese literature, you`re going to have to learn Japanese, because I have neither the time, nor the necessary expertise in the area, nor the duty, to tackle all of your concerns. I`m really sorry if I could not satisfy you, but I have tried my best within reason.

[RobertJasiek]

at the beginning of the chapter, he states the principles [...] There, you have several principles: [...] how to apply these principles allowing for the tactical and strategic qualities of each theme position. [...] introduces more along the way [...] you also have to judge each position on its merits.
[...]
the principles listed above are not especially new to me, but it was good to be reminded of them and to have them illustrated deeply. [...] also contains material that is new to me

Thank you! Now, this is a pretty good description of the book, which appears to be much better than the average Japanese book I have seen. I'd guess it might be useful for 7k to 3d players, where about 3k to 3d would know most of the principles but probably share your experience of profiting from the deeper illustration.

although I have no idea what interpretation you`d make of it without reading the text. As an example, but only one, I will provide this quotation: "The point of an `Attacking Fuseki` is that by expanding your moyo to a greater scale than your opponent you cause them to intrude first [so you can attack and consolidate]

I think I would understand that kind of contents from the diagrams. I did not understand such from the Nihon Kiin Fuseki Dictionary because it ends with the opening moves and does not show application of openings during the middle game. Rin Kaiho's Fuseki Dictionary (of which I read an Asian edition) was better in that respect, but still ending rather early. So, if a book shows also later moves, I would have a good chance to understand purposes of openings just from the diagrams.

Where [the Japanese books] excel, for me, is in showing some useful principles and in using tactical reading and overall board judgement to apply them. I suspect that your approach

Also I use tactics and global judgement.

might be simply too systemic,

Being more systematic is never bad:) However, the density of theory might be too high for your taste.


EDIT: add middle part of the post.

[Tami]

I`m glad that I`ve been able to answer you a little better. Come to think of it, I suspect that of the Japanese books you`ve seen, many of them would be slim volumes of problems and the like. For instance, 一目の手筋　(Tesuji at a Glance) or 三段合格の死活１５０題　(150 Life and Death Problems for 3 Dans). Often there is no specific author, and they are clearly designed to carry in your pocket - useful for the strap-hanging salaryman to read on the subway, or to sneak in a bit of study while in the lavatory at work. There are many such books on the market, and I`ve bought quite a few along the way, but they do tend to be pretty light on theory, and heavy on problems with very brief explanations. They are also cheap - less than 1000 yen.

The MyCom books are bigger (A5 size I think), and they contain a lot more text, and usually a famous name on the cover. They are printed on thick paper, and have nice matte slip covers with pretty pictures. To what extent they are really written by the alleged author, one can only guess, but you`re getting a lot more content than simply problems plus "white plays here and black plays there". This is only natural, as they are more expensive than the pocket books.

Beyond this, you can also find beautifully bound and presented books with collected game commentaries and special boxes to keep them in, but they are much more expensive.

As with most other things, you get what you pay for!

[Tami]

I think I would understand that kind of contents from the diagrams. I did not understand such from the Nihon Kiin Fuseki Dictionary because it ends with the opening moves and does not show application of openings during the middle game. Rin Kaiho's Fuseki Dictionary (of which I read an Asian edition) was better in that respect, but still ending rather early. So, if a book shows also later moves, I would have a good chance to understand purposes of openings just from the diagrams.Quote: Where [the Japanese books] excel, for me, is in showing some useful principles and in using tactical reading and overall board judgement to apply them. I suspect that your approach

Quite likely you could make a good guess at what the author is trying to convey. Besides which, it`s not so hard to learn a few kanji (正解 solution, 失敗 failure, 実践の例 actual game example etc.) and there are often little icons (for instance, a flashing beacon like on a cop car, in the Ishida book) to help get the point across.

All that said, there is a lot of content in the text, and it would make me sad if you spent a lot of money on buying books that you could not fully enjoy or benefit from.

To be honest, I think it would be excessive to learn Japanese or Korean or Chinese just to study go books. Speaking of myself, I like reading for the pleasure of reading, and because it comes in kind of useful (!), and because it`s an extra skill to add to my CV, should the need arise. Since I`d like to be a high dan player, it seems very efficient to use Japanese books for study because it kills two birds with one stone (一石二鳥).

A little confession: I learned a lot of Japanese reading from street signs! If you`re paying attention, the streets are a classroom, because you`ve got the kanji plus common readings printed all over the place.

[RobertJasiek]

of the Japanese books you`ve seen, many of them would be slim volumes of problems and the like [...]
The MyCom books are bigger (A5 size I think), and they contain a lot more text, and usually a famous name on the cover. They are printed on thick paper, and have nice matte slip covers with pretty pictures. [...]
Beyond this, you can also find beautifully bound and presented books with collected game commentaries and special boxes to keep them in

I have seen all of that, but of type II hardly any books of the Ishida's quality of contents.

As with most other things, you get what you pay for!

If only it would be that simple!