Tami's Way

Create a study plan, track your progress and hold yourself accountable.
User avatar
Tami
Lives in gote
Posts: 558
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 5:05 pm
GD Posts: 0
IGS: Reisei 1d
Online playing schedule: When I can
Location: Carlisle, England
Has thanked: 196 times
Been thanked: 342 times

Re: Tami's Way

Post by Tami »

So many posts and good ideas being posted here...I don`t have time to do them justice yet, but I am grateful for the interesting input. :bow:

For now, I`d like to toot my horn just a little and say that I believe I do have one crucial talent, which may help me for years to come:

I may be 40, but I can still change my mind.


It seems many people want to be proved right, or will not admit another`s point of view has merit. But if you can accept being wrong, you can rebuild your way of thinking. Sometimes rebuilding is faster than repairing something faulty. I only gained my "talent" because I had to - due to circumstances, I was forced to learn music and languages later in life than is normal, but thank God I did, because the experience has kept me flexible, even if it has been galling on many occasions.
Learn the "tea-stealing" tesuji! Cho Chikun demonstrates here:
User avatar
Tami
Lives in gote
Posts: 558
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 5:05 pm
GD Posts: 0
IGS: Reisei 1d
Online playing schedule: When I can
Location: Carlisle, England
Has thanked: 196 times
Been thanked: 342 times

Re: Tami's Way

Post by Tami »

Could this be a real epiphany?

Spurred on by John`s recommendation, I took a peak at Chess for Zebras, and I have ordered it. The snippet I saw hit me like a bullet between the eyes: it`s skill you need, more than knowledge.

That`s not to say knowledge isn`t useful, far from it, but over and above all it`s not the size of your knowledge that counts so much as what you do with it. To use an analogy, seven-year-old Sosuke speaks better Japanese than me, even though I probably know more words (and he gets confused when I use adult words to him), because he practices many hours a day with master speakers (his parents and teachers and school friends), and learns quickly how to use what he knows.

What are go skills then?

They must include

* reading
* positional judgement
* applying strategic knowledge appropriately
* psychological skills

Indeed, often skills are suprisingly mundane things when you look at them. It`s not complicated to drive a car, for instance, but it seemed hugely difficult before I learned how to do it. Again, in go, the most basic thing (pace Robert), is to occupy an open corner on your first move - it may seem moronically simple, but knowing it and applying it in your first games of go represents the step up in skill from, say, 30 kyu to 29 kyu.

In fact, it seems that I don`t know very much more than I did when I was, say, 3 kyu on KGS, but only that I`m more comfortable with what I do know. Extra things I have learned certainly help, but they`re not what make the main difference. From reading others` discussions and kibitzes, it seems that by around 9 kyu you`ve already at least heard of or have some basic grasp of the main ideas, but when I look at weaker players` games, I see those skills being used haphazardly or being forgotten in the heat of the moment; and so it must seem when somebody significantly stronger than me looks at my games.

Therefore, knowing go principles is one thing, but you must constantly practice applying them, so that you find out when they work and when it doesn`t. Problem books provide practice, as do reasonably slow games. While there are definitely many things you need to learn, the crucial thing is still in remembering to practice them.

Eventually you might achieve a certain level of fluency, in which reasonable ideas come automatically, but it seems to me that that is the point you have to rethink everything, in order to get to a higher level of fluency. In other words, there is a constant process of building the house, and then rebuilding it even better than before.

So what I am arguing here is that there should be a balance in operation: let the unconscious mind synthesise your learning into a workable system (relational memory, consolidation, fluency), but never rest there, always be willing to challenge, expand and rebuild what you think you know.

Therefore, rather than on memorising sequences from dictionaries, I`m going to concentrate on books that "rewire" my brain by causing me to think and think again. Again, instead of trying to memorise pro games, I`d go so far as to recommend people to think about them. Why did Lee Chang Ho play there? Why did Yamashita seem to violate a principle? You might be far off-beam, but the act of thinking about it, that is exercising your skills, won`t hurt you at all.

Now, back to study with excitement and an open mind!
Learn the "tea-stealing" tesuji! Cho Chikun demonstrates here:
RobertJasiek
Judan
Posts: 6273
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:54 pm
GD Posts: 0
Been thanked: 797 times
Contact:

Re: Tami's Way

Post by RobertJasiek »

Tami wrote:it`s skill you need, more than knowledge.


Knowledge is a requirement for skill.

it`s not the size of your knowledge that counts so much as what you do with it.


Choice of knowledge, quality of knowledge, amount of knowledge and knowing how to apply knowledge all matter.

the most basic thing (pace Robert), is to occupy an open corner on your first move


It is not basic per se, but it is basic within the theory / under the assumption that corners must come first.

Therefore, knowing go principles is one thing, but you must constantly practice applying them, so that you find out when they work and when it doesn`t.


Practice is one way to find out - application of principles about when something works can be another way and can be a short cut if the principles exist.
xed_over
Oza
Posts: 2264
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:51 am
Has thanked: 1179 times
Been thanked: 553 times

Re: Tami's Way

Post by xed_over »

RobertJasiek wrote:
Tami wrote:it`s skill you need, more than knowledge.


Knowledge is a requirement for skill.

Is it? Maybe not. I think kids are perfect examples -- at such a young age they acquire skills with little to no [conscious] knowledge about what or how they do what they do.
RobertJasiek
Judan
Posts: 6273
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:54 pm
GD Posts: 0
Been thanked: 797 times
Contact:

Re: Tami's Way

Post by RobertJasiek »

That they do not express to us their go knowledge does not mean that they would not need go knowledge for their go skill.
User avatar
Tami
Lives in gote
Posts: 558
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 5:05 pm
GD Posts: 0
IGS: Reisei 1d
Online playing schedule: When I can
Location: Carlisle, England
Has thanked: 196 times
Been thanked: 342 times

Re: Tami's Way

Post by Tami »

First, this is my study journal, and it`s about me. I assume it`s okay to be self-centred in your own journal, isn`t it?

I just don`t understand what Robert is trying to get me to think or say. I think he wants to help me, but I sometimes wonder if he`s trying to troll me. English is not his native language, and maybe my English is difficult for non-native-speakers to understand properly, and perhaps he misinterprets my words. And what is it to him anyway? I`m only a 1k, I like reading go books and I like playing, and I like to share my thoughts about the books I have read. It`s not even as though the books are in competition with his - I buy Japanese books because they`re convenient, and others buy Japanese books for their own reasons. And I think the MyCom books, especially, are really good.

I accept that principles are very important and useful. You need something to help you play go, and if the game is not solved, then principles derived from logic and long experience appear to be just what you you`re looking for.

I accept that knowledge is very important.

I believe that go skill is a mixture of many things. I

I agree with Rowson`s assertion that skill is more important than knowledge. In fact, I think this is obvious.

I cannot believe Robert actually has his entire system consciously present in his mind while he plays. Whose working memory is capable of such a thing? He must have an unconscious mechanism that causes the appropriate principles or shapes or tesuji or whatever to come to mind in response to the situation at hand. He must have internalised much of what he knows, and made it automatic. Otherwise it would be simply impossible to play under any time limits. The only other possibility is that he has a truly incredible mind that can hold all its knowledge in its consciousness without pause.

I think you should consciously try to apply new things you learn, and try to find the right idea for the situation. It's just impossible (for me at least) to do it all at once. I apply one principle, and wonder if I ought to have tried another one; or sometimes I simply forget!

In fact, I believe learning is all about changing your mind, because really that is what learning is, when you think about it - you are making a permanent change in the structure of your brain. Literally, you create new connections and strengthen existing ones. You also unlink bad ones. When you rethink a concept carefully and test it, you become more skilful at applying it; when you acquire and understand new knowledge, you are changing the wiring within your brain. Conscious work may cause the changes, but the changes happen unconsciously. If you want to know more, please read about memory consolidation and relational memory.

But if you lose the capacity to change your mind, you will find it much harder to learn. If you think you`re always right, that`s a danger, and if you think you`ve found inviolable truths, then that`s a danger. If you think X principle must always take precedence over Y principle and that Z principle is always correct under XX circumstances, then you`re going to be setting yourself for severe mental turmoil when you encounter a situation in which such rigid thinking fails.

Again, it seems much wiser to play the position on its own merits and not to try to force your own system onto it. Use your system, and everybody has one (it`s called their "go skill set"), but let go be the master, and the system the servant. I don`t know how better to express this. If you think your personal system is a sure-fire winning strategy, and that you can operate like some sort of computer grinding the position up in the mill of your program, then you`re only setting yourself up for a huge disappointment.

But once more I ask, what are you trying to get me to say, Robert? Do you want me to take up your system like some sort of super-duper-power-checklist? Do you think that would turn me or anybody else into a much better player? Or does it bother you in some way that I think for myself, have my own opinions, and am willing to express them? And why me? I`m still a nobody (but I assure you that I`m working my hardest to change that).
Learn the "tea-stealing" tesuji! Cho Chikun demonstrates here:
User avatar
Cassandra
Lives in sente
Posts: 1326
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:33 am
Rank: German 1 Kyu
GD Posts: 0
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 153 times

Re: Tami's Way

Post by Cassandra »

RobertJasiek wrote:That they do not express to us their go knowledge does not mean that they would not need go knowledge for their go skill.

It is nearly impossible to "express" implicite knowledge by transforming it to explicite knowledge, which can be written down, and so can be read by others.

I suppose that you are concentrating on explicite knowledge, so the implicite version cannot be of any use for you.
The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
RobertJasiek
Judan
Posts: 6273
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:54 pm
GD Posts: 0
Been thanked: 797 times
Contact:

Re: Tami's Way

Post by RobertJasiek »

Tami wrote:it`s okay to be self-centred in your own journal, isn`t it?


It's ok, and if you insist, only you write here and you learn nothing, only we learn from you:)

troll


No. (Are you surprised that your study aims meet also different opinions?)

like to share my thoughts about the books I have read.


Great, but do you expect everybody to take your opinions on books as deserving no discussion?

I cannot believe Robert actually has his entire system consciously present in his mind while he plays.


Ok, let me say 99%. 1% I forget and need to look up from time to time. Concerning "consciously": most of it as references to "storage addresses" somewhere in my brain. It is important to be able to seek every part of the knowledge system when needed - not to have at any time a full picture with all the details of principles etc. in front of my mental eyes.

Whose working memory is capable of such a thing?


Every brain works like this, but not everybody has the courage to learn enough explicit knowledge:)

He must have an unconscious mechanism that causes the appropriate principles or shapes or tesuji or whatever to come to mind in response to the situation at hand.


A conscious set of mechanisms.

He must have internalised much of what he knows, and made it automatic. Otherwise it would be simply impossible to play under any time limits.


No. Think of my knowledge in my brain to be ordered like a dynamic dictionary. I see the TOC immediately, but I need to use the TOC to look up whatever is relevant. The TOC has levels of structure, and this allows fast or even very fast access to every needed knowledge. Time limits are a problem only where my knowledge has to refer to and apply complex thinking such as reading in unknown situations.

The only other possibility is that he has a truly incredible mind that can hold all its knowledge in its consciousness without pause.


I am not a savon with a photographic memory. See above for how I do it.

I think you should consciously try to apply new things you learn, and try to find the right idea for the situation.


Exactly. That's what I do. The better case of to have the idea already stored, the worse case is having to invent an idea at the moment when needing it. The problem is not creativity but needed time for thinking to invent something.

In fact, I believe learning is all about changing your mind, because really that is what learning is, when you think about it - you are making a permanent change in the structure of your brain.


Sure.

If you think you`re always right, that`s a danger,
and if you think you`ve found inviolable truths, then that`s a danger. If you think X principle must always take precedence over Y principle and that Z principle is always correct under XX circumstances, then you`re going to be setting yourself for severe mental turmoil when you encounter a situation in which such rigid thinking fails.


As is it a danger to reject to possibility for proven truths, which happen to be always right.

Again, it seems much wiser to play the position on its own merits and not to try to force your own system onto it.


I do not see the conflict you are trying to construct. One's own system should be open for taking every position's merits as input.

If you think your personal system is a sure-fire winning strategy, and that you can operate like some sort of computer grinding the position up in the mill of your program, then you`re only setting yourself up for a huge disappointment.


Rather it is an excitement to further develop the system where it is still insufficient.

what are you trying to get me to say, Robert? Do you want me to take up your system like some sort of super-duper-power-checklist? Do you think that would turn me or anybody else into a much better player? Or does it bother you in some way that I think


1) It bothers me when you make statements in the direction "knowledge is no good, now I try the intuition only path".

2) My checklist AFA written down is far from complete. Dozens of further books are needed. Until then, verbally floating around principles can be at least a partial substitute for explicit knowledge.

3) Knowledge like the one I write about can make everybody a much better player if a) he still does not know related knowledge and b) he is not fundamentally opposed to investing effort in this learning style.

4) As somebody who you seem to accept both knowledge and subconscious insight, you should, IMO, in fact seek as much of both as possible.

5) I am not trying to get you to say something specific. You choose your words. At the same time, see the other points.

And why me? I`m still a nobody


You express opinions that, in my opinion, are controversial and deserve discussion. You are the 10,001st go player with whom I have an intense discussion, and you ask why you?;) I discuss with everybody who chooses to discuss something interesting in public. You would be a nobody if you kept all your discussion to a private chat.
User avatar
Magicwand
Tengen
Posts: 4844
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:26 am
Rank: Wbaduk 7D
GD Posts: 0
KGS: magicwand
Tygem: magicwand
Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
Has thanked: 62 times
Been thanked: 504 times

Re: Tami's Way

Post by Magicwand »

[admin]

Please note that the TOS says no insulting other members.

Thanks
JB

[/admin]
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"

Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
lemmata
Lives in gote
Posts: 370
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:38 pm
Rank: Weak
GD Posts: 0
Has thanked: 91 times
Been thanked: 254 times

Re: Tami's Way

Post by lemmata »

Do you have a go teacher, Tami? Just curious. I hope you get stronger, if only to give me some hope for improvement. :)
User avatar
Magicwand
Tengen
Posts: 4844
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:26 am
Rank: Wbaduk 7D
GD Posts: 0
KGS: magicwand
Tygem: magicwand
Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
Has thanked: 62 times
Been thanked: 504 times

Re: Tami's Way

Post by Magicwand »

edited by Magicwand
Last edited by Magicwand on Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"

Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
User avatar
Tami
Lives in gote
Posts: 558
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 5:05 pm
GD Posts: 0
IGS: Reisei 1d
Online playing schedule: When I can
Location: Carlisle, England
Has thanked: 196 times
Been thanked: 342 times

Re: Tami's Way

Post by Tami »

Tami wrote:I accept that knowledge is very important.


RobertJasiek wrote:1) It bothers me when you make statements in the direction "knowledge is no good, now I try the intuition only path".


Actually, I agree with a lot of things you say, Robert, but sometimes I cannot help thinking you find disagreements where there aren`t any.

RobertJasiek wrote:You express opinions that, in my opinion, are controversial and deserve discussion. You are the 10,001st go player with whom I have an intense discussion, and you ask why you?;) I discuss with everybody who chooses to discuss something interesting in public.
[

RobertJasiek wrote: Quote: Tami: the most basic thing (pace Robert), is to occupy an open corner on your first move

Robert: It is not basic per se, but it is basic within the theory / under the assumption that corners must come first.



I also enjoy discussions, but sometimes it becomes exhausting talking to you. I appreciate the fact that you are seeking truth about go, but I also would like to have time just to get on with studying and playing the game, not to mention other life goals. Maybe it`s not your intention, but you do come across in a very dogmatic and inflexible way. If you did not argue with every single thing and were sometimes just to let things by in order to concentrate on the main point, it might lend your position greater force and clarity. For instance, whether or not corners really must come first was not the point...that`s why I said "pace, Robert".

Life is just too short for taking these discussions to these extremes.
Learn the "tea-stealing" tesuji! Cho Chikun demonstrates here:
Dazz
Dies in gote
Posts: 59
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:05 am
Rank: 9 kyu
GD Posts: 0
Has thanked: 13 times
Been thanked: 10 times

Re: Tami's Way

Post by Dazz »

Tami wrote: Actually, I agree with a lot of things you say, Robert, but sometimes I cannot help thinking you find disagreements where there aren`t any.
...
I also enjoy discussions, but sometimes it becomes exhausting talking to you.


I want to commend you on writing the most gracious response that I have seen on this forum, while at the same time being honest. Keep up the great posts!

Robert, I have been interested in your books in the past but have not bought one. Unfortunately, you are your own worst enemy when it comes to marketing your books.
RobertJasiek
Judan
Posts: 6273
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:54 pm
GD Posts: 0
Been thanked: 797 times
Contact:

Re: Tami's Way

Post by RobertJasiek »

Tami wrote:you do come across in a very dogmatic and inflexible way. [...] For instance, whether or not corners really must come first was not the point...


The dogmatic and inflexible opinion would rather be the "corners first" idea. I promote the flexible opinion "any first region (3rd line or higher) is possible".

If you dislike discussion about minor things, then why do you hold opinions about them when a discussion is mainly about other major things? You like to hold such opinions and I like to counter them if I disagree to them.

Even traditional theory is not dogmatic about corners first; playing around tengen has long been considered as a valid alternative. Talk about teaching beginners has a tendency to introduce inflexible thinking such as "corners first" without good reason. (The usually stated reason that it is the easiest to make points in the corner misses the related counter-reason that early territory-making, surrounded stones near the corner have the least impact for later development.)
User avatar
Tami
Lives in gote
Posts: 558
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 5:05 pm
GD Posts: 0
IGS: Reisei 1d
Online playing schedule: When I can
Location: Carlisle, England
Has thanked: 196 times
Been thanked: 342 times

Re: Tami's Way

Post by Tami »

RobertJasiek wrote:The dogmatic and inflexible opinion would rather be the "corners first" idea. I promote the flexible opinion "any first region (3rd line or higher) is possible".If you dislike discussion about minor things, then why do you hold opinions about them when a discussion is mainly about other major things? You like to hold such opinions and I like to counter them if I disagree to them.Even traditional theory is not dogmatic about corners first; playing around tengen has long been considered as a valid alternative. Talk about teaching beginners has a tendency to introduce inflexible thinking such as "corners first" without good reason. (The usually stated reason that it is the easiest to make points in the corner misses the related counter-reason that early territory-making, surrounded stones near the corner have the least impact for later development.)


You have to start somewhere, although I do concede that passing is an option. I introduced the "corners first" idea as an example of some applied knowledge, as an example of the skill an utter beginner might acquire first. It occurred to me that you would probably take issue with this, and I acknowledge that there are interesting and important issues concerning that idea, but as whether the first "skill" one might acquire is learning how to occupy a corner, avoid a capture or ladder, hold your stone elegantly or whatever was irrelevant to the main argument I said "pace", which is a gentle way of saying "just this once, please refrain from disputing".

From now on, I am going to have to be very much more sparing in responding to you. If you have any big questions about Japanese go literature, and should choose to ask me, I will be delighted to help you if I can, but beyond that I cannot spare the time and energy to keep on sawing sawdust.
Learn the "tea-stealing" tesuji! Cho Chikun demonstrates here:
Post Reply