#181 magicwand vs topazg (again!)

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:45 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . 3 . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Ok, this was a kind of complicated decision to make. In many ways, coming across the top of my stone like this feels like a good move played a bit early, but it's only early if I can really do something about it. As I showed in the beginner section on the previous move, if White dives in at H17 Black has no problem living in the corner, so the first instinct is simply to ignore White and wedge on the left hand side. However:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm13 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 9 5 6 b . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 4 a B 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 0 . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . c . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

no longer needs to be at "a" to prevent Black from connecting up now (if Black cuts at "a", White connects at "b"). As a result, I'm finding it hard to see a way of getting adequate compensation for what could conceivably be a very large loss in the corner. The wedge is valuable, but it doesn't feel like it is big enough for this exchange. I did consider wedging with

, allowing

, and then aiming at moves like "c" to either make a good left hand side or get stuck into the corner (even the marked Black stone has some decent aji left), but it just didn't feel comfortable. So, as a result, I decided to secure the position at the top, leave a pretty much sente slide into the corner for later, and hope to get a chance to wedge on the next move.

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:47 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:38 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . 5 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Will

be the reply? My guess is a.

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:42 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I've updated my comment on the last move with a bit of further reasoning

So, time to wedge I think. Black's still ahead on the top side, so there's no great rush, and Black can't easily be pressed back down to the third line up there just yet. I really wanted to wedge high, but to be honest, I felt it was too hard to stabilise with a base if White simply approached:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . a . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 9 . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This sort of thing might be ok-ish, but it feels icky. White's top left is expanding too nicely, and even if the slide at "a" isn't a problem, it's pretty much sente and continues the "exchange" of points in White's direction on the left hand side. My concern about playing low is that White will be able to build up a bit of a framework - maybe something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 4 . . . . . . . c . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 8 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 5 a . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

However, not only does the corner have to be dealt with first, but the framework feels a bit ... thin, even if

was at "a". So, for the time being, I'll look at making a nice stable group and bide my time. I'm expecting a top right corner approach move at "c" soon.

For beginners:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

is a common wedge point because a two space jump (marked with "a" and "b") is available on each side - the idea being, if White approaches it from either direction, Black can make the beginnings of a settled base in the other. Sometimes this sort of thing isn't possible ... in which case, in a situation like this, I'd aim closer towards "a", so I'd have a choice of following up with

or diving into the corner with "c"

Bonobo · Post by **Bonobo** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:31 pm

topazg, I really like your “for beginners” comments, thank you!

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:38 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:33 pm

i am quite sure that my attack direction is correct one.
if you see below..."a" is open

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

if you see below...if black plays a then i will play b so black can not easily invade my 3-3 point.
for beginners, if you see similar situation now you know which picture i prefer.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . b 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . 0 . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:27 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

For beginners:

It's fairly common now to kick the Black stone. The reason being, if White pulls back and then Black slides into the corner, Black is basically completely stable and gets to reduce White's points, possibly doing so in sente:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm17 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 3 . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . 2 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Instead, by kicking, White can do a better job in the corner, whilst simultaneously depriving Black of being completely settled and somewhat overconcentrating his stones:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm17 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . a 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . c 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . x . . 4 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Yes, there's still aji in the corner at "x", but by invading it too early, Black normally damages his outside group. Depending on the timing (as it's gote), White can follow with the a -> b -> c sequence later to give Black messy thin shape whilst removing most of the aji in the corner.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 5:12 am

For Magicwand and topazg, after the game:

Magicwand wrote:i am quite sure that my attack direction is correct one.
if you see below..."a" is open
$$Bcm11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
if you see below...if black plays a then i will play b so black can not easily invade my 3-3 point.
for beginners, if you see similar situation now you know which picture i prefer.
$$Bcm11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . b 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 0 . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . b 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . 0 . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

topazg wrote:I figured he'd take one and I'd take the other, and I suspected this would be the one he'd take.

Just to show how difficult Go is, and my ignorance, in my game a few days ago, I blocked with

:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm67 $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , X O O . . X O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X O O O O X . X | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . X X O O X X X . X . | $$ | . 4 . . . . . . . . O X X X . O X X X | $$ | . . . O . . . O . . O . . O X O . O . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . O . O O O O . . | $$ | . . . O . O X O . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . X X X . X . . . . X . X . X . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

In the game review, a pro comment was I blocked the wrong direction. Instead, this is better for W:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 5 . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , X O O . . X O X . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . X . X O O O O X . X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X O O X X X . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . O X X X | $$ | . . . O . . . O . . O . . O X O . O . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . O . O O O O . . | $$ | . . . O . O X O . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . X X X . X . . . . X . X . X . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Noting the "similarity" (or so I thought) on the left side of the 4 variations above,
I said, Looks like Magicwand blocked the correct direction with

(C11), as pointed out in my game.
To my surprise, pro opinion was, No, it's better in Magicwand's case to block the other direction (C7),
and then the reasons were explained to me. Go is so difficult.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 8:25 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . B . B . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If White makes this extension, then he would rather not have made the exchanges on the top side (marked stones).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . W . . W . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

OTOH, if White extends this way, those exchanges help in the fight in the top left quadrant. In addition,

expands the White moyo on the bottom and works well with the

stones.

The Intrepid · Post by **The Intrepid** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:30 am

To EdLee:

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:54 pm

Intrepid,

Bill,

Bill Spight wrote:If White makes this extension, then he would rather not have made the exchanges on the top side (marked stones).
$$Bm11
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . B . B . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11 $$ ---------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . B . B . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Correct! That's one reason. The second one is also correct: to expand W's moyo on the bottom.

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 4:02 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . 0 . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

let me know if you disagree

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 6:37 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm18 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . 3 . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

My prediction.

BTW, I like

better than the knight's move. It threatens to make more territory and is better placed for attack.

may be slow, but it is solid, and looks to reducing the White moyo towards the top and invading the White moyo on the bottom.

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:05 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

That's absolutely fine, nothing unexpected

Yeah, the high extension was better than low, it's much better for keeping up the pressure on my group. So, I didn't really want to play this move - it's nice and solid but it's really a bit .. one-dimensional and slow. It helps with dealing with the potential of White's stones above, but not as much as I'd like - so, why did I play this one?

Well, the first two I looked at were these:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . a . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

However, as I don't have a favourable ladder in either of them, I don't think they can be good. If White had played his extension low, I was half wondering about playing a forcing (but possibly aji-keshi) move as a ladder breaker:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O y y y . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . y y y . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 3 7 . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . x x x . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . x x x . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . a 1 . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . 2 . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The idea here of course is to get a simultaneously strong group with some potential for points around "x", whilst reducing White's potential area at "y". However, what if White responds with

at "a"? I hadn't read things in detail, but if I end up not getting the passive response above (which I suspected was optimistic anyway), then I think it's a bad idea to play this way. I should probably be glad White played high after all, even though I suspect it's objectively better.

So, solidly does it, this is a sort of form of honte really, and there are so many big points I'm ok with this. Besides, it makes C3 a bit more attractive later as White can't so easily play to split and harrass this group.

For beginners (A):

"One point jumps for running, knight's moves for attacking" (or some loose paraphrase thereof) goes the proverb, and of course it's flexible with its application. In my experience, a knight's move should often be sought after in these positions, trying to press your opponent down in one direction, giving yourself more outside thickness in the other. However, every knight move can be cut at the waste, depending on the ladder. So, if you're ever in a similar position, ask yourself as Black "does the ladder work for me?", and if you're White and Black just played it, ask yourself "Can I cut directly .. right now?"

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 The ladder in question $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 3 1 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . a X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

There are times when White, if he has a weak group, may want to play

at "a" as a way of settling his shape, but I would be surprised if it's a better way to play than "a" directly except in very rare circumstances. Basically, if the cut works, it's worth seriously reading as a playable option, particularly in a situation such as this where Black would be split into two sad groups. If the cut doesn't work, and you can't find a move you really wanted that makes it work (with, for example, a ladder-breaker-cum-extension), just leave it alone.

For beginners (B):

The group looks sort of safe right? I mean, it has a two point extension on the edge and an extra stone, surely living here is straightforward enough that I should be going after one of those big points in the top right or some such like?

Actually, this is one of the harder aspects of Go to grasp in my opinion. It's not that the group shouldn't have trouble living, it's the potential in about an 8-9 space square around that group that can be affected by local continuations. Essentially, when building a framework, two walls facing the center are very hard to turn into any real points. As a result, it shouldn't be too urgent to handle the situation compared to the remaining large fuseki points. However, if your opponent can build a third wall in sente, all of a sudden he gets three walls and an additional move and can threaten 30+ points of territory, seemingly out of the blue.

Why is this relevant here? White has a relatively strong collection of stones in the top left, and a good position in the lower left, with an extension along the bottom. If I decide to tenuki and White manages to seal the group in and force it to live in gote on the edge, I could be in global trouble all of a sudden:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . a . . . a . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 9 . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 4 . a . . . . . 0 . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 O 7 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 6 8 O . O . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . b . . b . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'll be honest, I just threw those stones out without any real reading at all, so please don't look too hard for combination that refute it (although, in practice, these are very important to have read out, as they determine the urgency of the local play). The point is more simple - after this sequence, not only has Black given White the whole bottom left as secure territory (as opposed to the juicy 3-3 aji he wants to leave), but he's also made the entire area around "a" start to look extremely promising for White. It's not exaggerating to say that, in the position just above, I would already consider Black comfortably behind even though he's not going to die on the edge. Being sealed in, particularly whilst conceding sente to your opponent as well, can be positionally fatal - it's very important here for Black to take consideration of what White might want to try and do with the stones he has on the board, and make a plan that helps himself (in this case, helping secure the stability of the group) and also makes it harder for his opponent to build a plan of action (in this case, using those stones on the board to start creating the skeleton of a framework).

Life In 19x19

#181 magicwand vs topazg (again!)

Re: #181 magicwand vs topazg (again!)

Re: #181 magicwand vs topazg (again!)

Re: #181 magicwand vs topazg (again!)

Re: #181 magicwand vs topazg (again!)

Re: #181 magicwand vs topazg (again!)

Re: #181 magicwand vs topazg (again!)

Re: #181 magicwand vs topazg (again!)

Re: #181 magicwand vs topazg (again!)

Re: #181 magicwand vs topazg (again!)

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Re: #181 magicwand vs topazg (again!)

Re: #181 magicwand vs topazg (again!)

Re: #181 magicwand vs topazg (again!)