#181 magicwand vs topazg (again!)

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:54 pm

EdLee wrote:For Magicwand and topazg, after the game:
Magicwand wrote:i am quite sure that my attack direction is correct one.
if you see below..."a" is open
$$Bcm11
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
if you see below...if black plays a then i will play b so black can not easily invade my 3-3 point.
for beginners, if you see similar situation now you know which picture i prefer.
$$Bcm11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . b 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 0 . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . b 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . 0 . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
topazg wrote:I figured he'd take one and I'd take the other, and I suspected this would be the one he'd take.
Just to show how difficult Go is, and my ignorance, in my game a few days ago, I blocked with :
$$Bcm67
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X O O . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X O O O O X . X |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . X X O O X X X . X . |
$$ | . 4 . . . . . . . . O X X X . O X X X |
$$ | . . . O . . . O . . O . . O X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . O . O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X O . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X . X . . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm67 $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , X O O . . X O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X O O O O X . X | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . X X O O X X X . X . | $$ | . 4 . . . . . . . . O X X X . O X X X | $$ | . . . O . . . O . . O . . O X O . O . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . O . O O O O . . | $$ | . . . O . O X O . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . X X X . X . . . . X . X . X . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
In the game review, a pro comment was I blocked the wrong direction. Instead, this is better for W:
$$Wc
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$$ | . . . O . 5 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
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$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X O O . . X O X . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . X . X O O O O X . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X O O X X X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . O X X X |
$$ | . . . O . . . O . . O . . O X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . O . O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X O . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X . X . . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 5 . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , X O O . . X O X . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . X . X O O O O X . X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X O O X X X . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . O X X X | $$ | . . . O . . . O . . O . . O X O . O . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . O . O O O O . . | $$ | . . . O . O X O . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . X X X . X . . . . X . X . X . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Noting the "similarity" (or so I thought) on the left side of the 4 variations above,
I said, Looks like Magicwand blocked the correct direction with (C11), as pointed out in my game.
To my surprise, pro opinion was, No, it's better in Magicwand's case to block the other direction (C7),
and then the reasons were explained to me. Go is so difficult.

I know nothing about go, but my idea is that the board positions are different in terms of influence. In MW's board position, I think Bill Spight gave a good explanation of why to try a different direction. In particular, white's marked stones have influence and play a part in giving incentive to push black's stones toward that influence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In my opinion, white's play on the bottom left is more valuable for this reason. Namely, he gets to push black into his area of influence with a move that's probably sente, and he also gets to help the bottom left.

I feel this is a little different from the board position you posted. In particular, while there is influence in the marked area, I feel black and white kind of cancel one another out:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , B O O . . X O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . B . X O O O O X . X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . B X O O X X X . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . O X X X | $$ | . . . W . . . W . . O . . O X O . O . | $$ | . . . . . W . . . . . O . O O O O . . | $$ | . . . O . O X O . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . X X X . X . . . . X . X . X . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

In particular, I really can't feel like white has great influence in the bottom left, because of black's marked stones. That makes me feel that it's less effective to "push" black into white's influence - white doesn't have that much influence, as it's cancelled out...

I don't know if that makes sense, or if it's even correct. But it's a rough idea of how I feel about the situation. I wonder what a pro might think ;-)

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:01 pm

Kirby,

For the MW-topazg game, what Bill said about MW's :w16:

is correct (same as pro opinion):

Bill Spight wrote:If White makes this extension, then he would rather not have made the exchanges on the top side (marked stones).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . a . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . @ . . . B . B . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . @ . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

Pro thinking includes the efficiency of W's stones on top:
since the :w16:

shape is quite solid for W, the :wc:

exchange becomes bad for W --
W would rather invade, say at (a) instead, than to help B solidify B's top like in the real game.

For my game, pro opinion was my bottom group was weak, and :w1:

blocking at C9 kind of makes a perfect shape with the :wt:

stones:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 5 . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , X O O . . X O X . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . X . X O O O O X . X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X O O X X X . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . O X X X | $$ | . . . Q . . . O . . O . . O X O . O . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . O . O O O O . . | $$ | . . . Q . O X O . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . Q . X X X . X . . . . X . X . X . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:32 pm

EdLee,

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:38 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

i played there because i didnt know where to play.
thought about below.. didnt like it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . X . . . . . 2 . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . 4 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O 7 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

or this.. didnt like it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . b a 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 0 c . X . 7 4 6 . 2 . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . d O . . . X 5 X 8 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O e . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

what i played isnt much better but..we will see.
white is ahead on points..so if i can suck the points out of his territory..it will put some pressure on him.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:41 pm

Kirby,

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:27 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . 3 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Personally, I'm torn a bunch of ways on this move. It's late and I'm very tired, but in effect, what I'm avoiding is the ease with which White can do this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . 3 . 2 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . 4 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . 6 . . . . 5 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . 2 . 3 . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Trying to prevent White from quickly settling is very tricky here, and allowing White to connect around the outside is .. not so nice. Of course, a move like this also risks simply being dame, but that depends somewhat on how White plays next. Certainly, I need to be very careful, and I dislike playing moves to contact White's central stones just to harrass this one. I think this move may be too slow, but it also opens up other possibilities for me in the middle. The harder to read sequences start:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . 3 . 4 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . a . . . . b . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

My shape seems good enough now that "a" is quite hard for White to play, so I'll probably respond with "b", but then White gets to slide anyway, so I still need care. At least the kosumi allows me to bump his top slide without complications:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 6 4 7 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . 5 a . 2 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . 3 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Without the cut at "a", I feel much more comfortable about being able to respond with the bump here.

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:31 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . 4 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

difference is a and b trade... i think that trade will leave more aji than not trading. and knight move is more flexable than plane jump... plus it seems more intresting. ^^

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . O . . . 5 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . a . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . b . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . 6 . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . O . . . 7 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . 4 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . 5 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

i have no idea what correct move for white is.. going with my feeling again..

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 1:59 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . 4 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . 5 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:10 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:22 am

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:10 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . 7 . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Ok, somewhat obscure move, but I have a plan:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm29 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . O . 1 . W . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . 3 . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm aiming for this cut, although I'm not sure quite how well it's going to pan out, and it also re-opens the possibility of playing in the 3-3 in the top left, which I really want a bit more than the slide.

For beginners:

Ok, starting back a few moves:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . B . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So, this probably looks a bit curious. There are a bunch of important principles to bear in mind when trying to come up with a good move here, but the leading one in my mind when picking this is the following:

Don't get sealed in!

As a rule of thumb, this one's a pretty important one. It's a group's worst nightmare (short of death, but even that can sometimes be less bad!) to be sealed into the edge with no direction for development. As a result, what I really wanted to avoid was something like this happening:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . z . . . . . . z . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . 1 . O . . . 5 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . 2 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . 6 . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . y . . . . x . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . x y . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . y . . . . x . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now, Black's group at the top can't expand for points, the area around "x" has been neutralised, White's started to gain the potential for some territory around "y", and the points at "z" are completely sente for White as Black's only hope for two eyes is to create them internally at the top.

Letting your opponent get outside points in sente as you scrabble to make two eyes inside your own group is pretty much always really bad.

So, playing this move guarantees White is the one that has to find somewhere to live. However, in itself, that doesn't make it a no-brainer good move. Without some form of plan to follow, this could easily happen:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . W 4 5 . | $$ | . . . . . X . . 3 . 0 . O . . 6 1 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . X 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . B . 8 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . 9 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Leading to my next principle:

Stones on dame are worth 0 points

Maybe Black's a bit unnecessarily passive here, but the bottom line now is that Black's got no real points, both adjacent White groups are strong and alive, and Black's marked stone is almost meaningless (it does have value in that it makes it hard for White to create outside thickness here, but it's not actually done a lot to earn Black anything useful points-wise yet). Splitting moves are good, particularly when it renders at least one (ideally both) of the opponent's groups as weak enough that they need to either run (which can be chased for thickness) or have to play internally to create two eyes, allowing you to build outside thickness that can be then turned into some useful profit. Splitting two strong groups is pretty much always bad, as it can't be easily turned into territory (you have two strong opponent groups outside), and it doesn't threaten anything.

So, how to turn a move like this into something resembling an actual plan of action?

Well, I didn't want to get sealed in, and I succeeded there. White's now happily playing to make a base, and if I let him manage that too easily without compensation, I've failed somewhere. I quite liked the idea of aiming for the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . O . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . 5 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . B . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . x . . x . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . x . . x . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Building a useful wall of influence facing the right side, with some reasonable chance of making profit at the "x" points. However, White played a useful exchange first making it harder than I'd like to follow this plan. However, despite this, I think White's shape is somewhat thin, and I can still work towards the same goal:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 W . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . 1 . O . 3 . 2 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . 5 . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . B . . O . . . 7 . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . X . 6 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

here is the bogie move that I can't find a resistance I'm completely satisfied with, but the principle remains. I don't want to get sealed in, and I don't want that poor marked Black stone to end up on dame serving no purpose. Worst case scenario I still score more points on the top edge, and my shape is sound.

As I was once told by a very strong amateur: "Always have a plan. Even a very bad plan is better than no plan at all". As a result, I don't want to just play a single move that follows basic principles, I want to have a plan behind it that gives me a result that I'm aiming for (in theory at least). It may be not a good result in the end, but at least I aimed for it and tried to make my stones mean something.

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:48 pm

17R. 3-3 pt

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:50 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . 7 . O . 9 . 8 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:51 pm

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:54 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm31 Prisoners: none $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . O . X . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . 1 . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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#181 magicwand vs topazg (again!)

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Re: #181 magicwand vs topazg (again!)

Re: #181 magicwand vs topazg (again!)

Re: #181 magicwand vs topazg (again!)

Re: #181 magicwand vs topazg (again!)

Re: #181 magicwand vs topazg (again!)

Re: #181 magicwand vs topazg (again!)

Re: #181 magicwand vs topazg (again!)

Re: #181 magicwand vs topazg (again!)

Re: #181 magicwand vs topazg (again!)

Re: #181 magicwand vs topazg (again!)

Re: #181 magicwand vs topazg (again!)

Re: #181 magicwand vs topazg (again!)