I find myself in these two situations very often:
The stones at K16 representing any kind of weak group that would be hurt by 'a' but that would settle pincering a white stone at 'b'.
The wall at H representing thickness that would profit a lot from extending by pincering a white stone at 'b'.
I'm never sure of what to do in those situations.
In the first one I hate giving a shimari to create a strong attack on the center stones, but that's what I usually do.
In the second example, I hate giving the enormous territory while being pincered and I also dislike playing farther away from the corner and trying to live inside.
Urgency and shimari
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jts
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Re: Urgency and shimari
In the second diagram, are you sure B wants the extension to a? It's not a perfect example, but it seems a bit like over concentration... You want to force your opponent to extend towards your strong area, not fence out a few extra points while your opponent move to an area where you are weak.
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Bill Spight
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Re: Urgency and shimari
A shimari is a big move, an the proverb normally applies: Urgent moves before big moves. 
does not appeal, because 
is ideal.
is less than ideal, so there may be times to play . I can't think of any, though. 
is terrible, allowing 
which combines attack and defense, and hits at the key spot.
After the two space high approach, is less than ideal, and not much of an attack. White can play , but is not happy after 
.
is big, combining attack and defense, but does the same, and is ideal.
This way Black secures a base, both sides are over concentrated, and White gets a kakari, anyway.
In general, White likes this. There is still potential play in the corner.
White can be satisfied.
Black is over concentrated, and White still gets the kakari.
White gets the attack and the kakari.
White can be satisfied. There is still play in the corner.
Because of the Black strength, is a bit over concentrated.
Despite the Black strength, threatens to continue with a slide to 
. If Black prevents that, Black will be over concentrated.
Specifics matter. Here it is not "a" that Black fears so much, as it is one point to the left (the jaw).Alguien wrote:I find myself in these two situations very often:
The stones at K16 representing any kind of weak group that would be hurt by 'a' but that would settle pincering a white stone at 'b'.
does not appeal, because is ideal. is less than ideal, so there may be times to play . I can't think of any, though. is terrible, allowing which combines attack and defense, and hits at the key spot.After the two space high approach,
is less than ideal, and not much of an attack. White can play , but is not happy after . is big, combining attack and defense, but does the same, and is ideal.This way Black secures a base, both sides are over concentrated, and White gets a kakari, anyway.
In general, White likes this. There is still potential play in the corner.
White can be satisfied.
Black is over concentrated, and White still gets the kakari.
White gets the attack and the kakari.
White can be satisfied. There is still play in the corner.
Specifics matter.The wall at H representing thickness that would profit a lot from extending by pincering a white stone at 'b'.
Because of the Black strength,
is a bit over concentrated.Despite the Black strength,
threatens to continue with a slide to . If Black prevents that, Black will be over concentrated.The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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John Fairbairn
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Re: Urgency and shimari
No - the proverb is urgent moves before big points. Big point is one of a definable set of moves which is rather different from any big move (Robert has fallen into this trap, too), and in fact does not have the same connotation of countability. It does, however, have the connotation of a fuseki play and so tells us the proverb only applies then.A shimari is a big move, an the proverb normally applies: Urgent moves before big moves.
For one good list of big points, see Segoe's in Kamakura, page 130.
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Bill Spight
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Re: Urgency and shimari
If you want to be a stickler for algebraic translation, John, it is urgent places before large places. Besides, you know that I, of all people, will not fall into the trap of confusing a move with a high value from a big move. After all, as a rule urgent moves have higher values than big moves. (Or, if they are sente, they threaten larger moves.) The proverb is useful because urgent moves do not always look like high value moves. (Not that there are not other considerations besides value, OC.John Fairbairn wrote:No - the proverb is urgent moves before big points. Big point is one of a definable set of moves which is rather different from any big move (Robert has fallen into this trap, too), and in fact does not have the same connotation of countability. It does, however, have the connotation of a fuseki play and so tells us the proverb only applies then.A shimari is a big move, an the proverb normally applies: Urgent moves before big moves.
For one good list of big points, see Segoe's in Kamakura, page 130.
)Look, in English a shimari (in this context) is a move, OK? The proverb still applies, doesn't it?
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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John Fairbairn
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Re: Urgency and shimari
The last thing I would ever want to be associated with is algebra, and in my non-mathematical way I regard a point as a place (and the Japanese definitions of 大場 use e.g. 地点 要点). But that's not the point, so to speak. As far as I can tell, only you use "big move" in this sense. To everyone else, in my experience, and to Sensei's Library, it means what you call a "high-value move". SL seems to use "big point" throughout (and I had no hand in this). The English go lexicon is confusing enough without adding more confusion.If you want to be a stickler for algebraic translation, John, it is urgent places before large places. Besides, you know that I, of all people, will not fall into the trap of confusing a move with a high value from a big move
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daal
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Re: Urgency and shimari
Sorry John, but you've certainly managed to confuse me. Isn't a "move" the same as placing a stone on a point?John Fairbairn wrote:The English go lexicon is confusing enough without adding more confusion.
BTW, a search on sensei's library for "urgent before big" offers this:
Title containing word:
Play urgent moves before big moves
[Alias] urgent moves before big moves
[Alias] Urgent plays before big plays
[Alias] urgent points before big points
All links point to: Play urgent moves before big moves.
Patience, grasshopper.
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Re: Urgency and shimari
Thank you, this list of examples is exactly what I try and fail to build in my head. I'll try to analyse them to search my analysis flaw.
, but I don't like white's result anyway.
there. I'll try to remember "high middle point" as an option.
Other than that, I see this as exchanging a strong attack on the left for a big corner for b.
I would have to learn to invade that corner before being satisfied with this.
What's the next w move here?
- a gives b the entire huge top. However, it gives w a decent right and sente. (it seems the correct move. I must study those josekis harder).
- b gives b the right and w thickness against a settled b group.
- c... doesn't seem to work without a weaker.
Thank you very much for the help.
I see this one.Bill Spight wrote:Specifics matter. Here it is not "a" that Black fears so much, as it is one point to the left (the jaw).
I see this result as helping black settle while not really hurting the corner so much.Bill Spight wrote:
I don't expect b to play like this, so ok up to here.Bill Spight wrote:
I don't understandBill Spight wrote: After the two space high approach,
, but I don't like white's result anyway.I like this result for W and I wouldn't have thought of playingBill Spight wrote:
there. I'll try to remember "high middle point" as an option.I don't like this result for W (so if it's good I'd like to know why). I see this as making b very strong on the left and still giving sente to b for a play on the corner.Bill Spight wrote: This way Black secures a base, both sides are over concentrated, and White gets a kakari, anyway.
I will have to make another thread about this potential in the corner because I really don't see what can be done in there.Bill Spight wrote: In general, White likes this. There is still potential play in the corner.
Other than that, I see this as exchanging a strong attack on the left for a big corner for b.
Can't b connect under?Bill Spight wrote: White can be satisfied.
I would have to learn to invade that corner before being satisfied with this.
This seems fine for W.Bill Spight wrote: Black is over concentrated, and White still gets the kakari.
I'd think b wouldn't play this.Bill Spight wrote: White gets the attack and the kakari.
The potential in the corner is why I'd imagine b playing a small knight.Bill Spight wrote:White can be satisfied. There is still play in the corner.
But after b got to close his framework, w is still too far from the corner to settle while making any damage, right?Bill Spight wrote: Because of the Black strength,
What's the next w move here?
- a gives b the entire huge top. However, it gives w a decent right and sente. (it seems the correct move. I must study those josekis harder).
- b gives b the right and w thickness against a settled b group.
- c... doesn't seem to work without a weaker
.This is the result I'd like as w but I'd expect the previous one.Bill Spight wrote: Despite the Black strength,
Thank you very much for the help.
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Re: Urgency and shimari
daal said:
"Big point" (and likewise "urgent point") is perhaps not ideal for this latter sense, especially to the mathematically minded, but it at least preserves the Japanese distinction, which I think is useful. The reason point was chosen over place or area is lost in the mists of time, but my memory is that this was indeed the first choice and the one I grew up with. If SL has also blurred this distinction, I regard that as another of the many reasons not to trust SL. And, if you insist on "big move", you get the silly situation where an urgent move is clearly a big move, so the proverb expressed as "urgent moves before big moves" means the same as "urgent moves before urgent moves" or "big moves before bg moves", and even if you make a mental note that there is a distinction, it can (wrongly) apply to any part of the game. Something like "Tactically urgent areas before strategically big areas" may not have a satisfying ring about it, but at least it means something useful, and also indicates that the fuseki is meant.
If, in Japanese, you describe a move (手) as a 大きな手, this is best rendered as "big move", and you will find that it is explained in a Japanese go dictionary as a "move with a high value"). Both the usage of this and the associations of the word "value" indicate clearly that what is meant is a move the value of which can be counted fairly accurately. It is also a specific move. It is a tactical move. A "big point", however (大場), has its own entry in a Japanese go dictionary as a separate and different concept. It is a strategic concept. Its definition (大どころ) indicates a place or area where a good strategic move can be made, almost always in the fuseki, and does not necessarily specify the precise move. Typical examples may be an extension or a corner enclosure, or a vantage point, but without specifying precisely which one.Sorry John, but you've certainly managed to confuse me. Isn't a "move" the same as placing a stone on a point?
"Big point" (and likewise "urgent point") is perhaps not ideal for this latter sense, especially to the mathematically minded, but it at least preserves the Japanese distinction, which I think is useful. The reason point was chosen over place or area is lost in the mists of time, but my memory is that this was indeed the first choice and the one I grew up with. If SL has also blurred this distinction, I regard that as another of the many reasons not to trust SL. And, if you insist on "big move", you get the silly situation where an urgent move is clearly a big move, so the proverb expressed as "urgent moves before big moves" means the same as "urgent moves before urgent moves" or "big moves before bg moves", and even if you make a mental note that there is a distinction, it can (wrongly) apply to any part of the game. Something like "Tactically urgent areas before strategically big areas" may not have a satisfying ring about it, but at least it means something useful, and also indicates that the fuseki is meant.
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RobertJasiek
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Re: Urgency and shimari
When referring to the proverb, I have copied what I have read or heard elsewhere, such as "Play urgent moves before big moves.". My advice has been: Evaluate the sizes of urgent moves to compare them with the sizes of big moves.John Fairbairn wrote:the proverb is urgent moves before big points. Big point is one of a definable set of moves which is rather different from any big move (Robert has fallen into this trap
Regardless of linguistics, sizes can be considered.and in fact does not have the same connotation of countability.
The proverb should always be replaced by more accurate considerations. Thereby one avoids making mistakes because of applying the proverb.the proverb only applies then.
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Cassandra
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Re: Urgency and shimari
Probably there is no measuring instrument available ?RobertJasiek wrote:Regardless of linguistics, sizes can be considered.John Fairbairn wrote:... and in fact does not have the same connotation of countability.
I found the proverb to be "大場より急場" = "ôba yori kyûba",
kyûba (急場) literally to be "urgent need", and ba (場) literally to be "place", "site", "szene".
However, in a book on Japanese grammar, I found that the usual way to make comparisons in Japanese seems to be
"AはBよりCです."
"A, seen from B, is C."
Let C be "small", then it says "A, seen from B, is small." or "A is smaller than B."
In the proverb shown above, we have
B = 大場
A = 急場
but C is missing.
So, it should be clear that 急場 is #1, and 大場 is #2, but it remains unspoken on what scale.
The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
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Bill Spight
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Re: Urgency and shimari
I agree that there is confusion, but I am not adding it. I learned the proverb in Japan, and the English version that I later encountered was about big moves and urgent moves. It is not something that I came up with.John Fairbairn wrote:The last thing I would ever want to be associated with is algebra, and in my non-mathematical way I regard a point as a place (and the Japanese definitions of 大場 use e.g. 地点 要点). But that's not the point, so to speak. As far as I can tell, only you use "big move" in this sense. To everyone else, in my experience, and to Sensei's Library, it means what you call a "high-value move". SL seems to use "big point" throughout (and I had no hand in this). The English go lexicon is confusing enough without adding more confusion.If you want to be a stickler for algebraic translation, John, it is urgent places before large places. Besides, you know that I, of all people, will not fall into the trap of confusing a move with a high value from a big move
OC, the big moves in the proverb are also big moves in the value sense, but so are the urgent moves in the proverb (or they are sente with large threats). People who only hear about the proverb and guess what it means might not realize that, but people who actually learn the proverb should get it.
Note 1: It is not unusual in English or other languages, to use a general term for a set of more specific instances. Sure, there is some ambiguity, but it is within the range of the normal ambiguity of language that people handle every day.
Note 2: Another approach to evaluation, which happens to get the same values as traditional go evaluation, is combinatorial game theory. It explains those values in terms of urgency. It seems like ambiguity is built into the English terms in this proverb.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Bill Spight
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Re: Urgency and shimari
Here is a clue about invading the corner. You do not have to live to make an effective invasion. I have marked a couple of points that White might consider later.Alguien wrote:Thank you, this list of examples is exactly what I try and fail to build in my head. I'll try to analyse them to search my analysis flaw.
Can't b connect under?Bill Spight wrote: White can be satisfied.
I would have to learn to invade that corner before being satisfied with this.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.