Missclick undo?

[judicata]

In normal play (and I practically never play blitz), I do not think it is rude/inappropriate to request undos for genuine misclicks, unless (per tchan's comment) your opponent made "no undos" a condition of playing. But even if that is not a condition of the game, it is (as OP suggested) entirely fair for your opponent to deny your request.

I routinely permit undos that are requested quickly after the play and before I respond (and request them on ocassion). I admit that I get irritated if my opponent denies an undo request for a genuine misclick, but I don't "ragequit" or tell them they're rude, etc. At most I might say "ok, fair enough."

These are just my perceptions, and don't apply to tournament or blitz games.

[Inkwolf]

@Yukontodd: I don't know about other cultures but your approach seems very reasonable to me. Maybe he misunderstood and thought you were saying he could only take back the last move, as opposed to going back several moves, and thought you were implying he'd been playing badly.

Maybe...I once played someone who asked for an undo, and I allowed it, only to discover he meant to have me allow several consecutive undos until he had a way to save the group I had just captured. When I wouldn't allow him to go back three or four moves, he sulkily resigned.

I usually allow undos within reason, but I sometimes regret it when they say, "Oops, misclick" when changing an obviously poorly-planned move and replacing it with a better one.

I have only had one person refuse an undo, and they (and their higher-level friend & observer) got in my face later for winning by playing an unreasonable invasion and taking advantage of my opponent's subsequent self-atari.

[NoSkill]

There is only one answer to this: Undo for misclicks. Here is why:

People who don't undo for misclicks end up getting this greedy ideaology that a win is a win, and etc. That leads down a bad path, you lose your drive to improve and forget your goals.

If you ask me, playing an honest, fair game is the best way to improve because you don't have to think "should i have undo" "should... etc" and you aren't afraid of losing. It is the best.

Also, if the game was in real-life would you have misclicks? Go wasn't a game made online.

For a follow up: http://youtu.be/3C7gKinR7Ts?t=3m19s

Look at sai's reaction to hikaru, about a "misclick"

[xed_over]

In this past summer's AGA-Tygem Pro tournament, one of the players played a bad move that surprised everyone watching. We asked him about it after the game, he said "I misclicked" (this was not a online game)

[emeraldemon]

For a follow up: http://youtu.be/3C7gKinR7Ts?t=3m19s

Look at sai's reaction to hikaru, about a "misclick"

But don't forget this:

http://youtu.be/D4Jgt4wExiQ?t=19m45s

[NoSkill]

For a follow up: http://youtu.be/3C7gKinR7Ts?t=3m19s

Look at sai's reaction to hikaru, about a "misclick"

But don't forget this:

http://youtu.be/D4Jgt4wExiQ?t=19m45s

Right, but there is a difference. I can see if you weren't paying attention, but my misclicks as well as most people's are from the mouse, especially if you use a laptop like me, clicking when you didn't mean to.

As the opponent, getting into the mindset that you can still win from a misclick or luck when you are behind is bad, if you don't think you can outplay the opponent and don't have a chance just resign.

As the player, if you think wrong or play in the wrong order deal with it and learn from it. If you genuinely have a pc error then ask for an undo, and either resign or escape a game where the opponent refuses to undo a genuine misclick.

I think this is the right way to approach it. To not undo for a genuine computer only mistake, not a mis-think or lack of focus is just rude in my opinion, and is the same as the link I posted. Same token, asking for an undo when its not a misclick is like what you posted.

[NoSkill]

After reading the thread for the first time (I had just read the title and posted because of lack of time) I have to say I feel bad for many of you. You will never improve, you will be stuck at your level forever. Be that way if you wish. Thinking like "I get sulky when they ask for an undo and I think if I should ask for an undo" is a poor loser statement, showing you lack go spirit and will generally never improve. The true go player who studies hard, wants to improve, etc. is happy to give an undo to an opponents misclick because they want to play the best game they can. Winning a game due to a misclick leaves this kind of person edgy or upset until they get over it.


In my opinion that is why you see so many people who say "no misclick" etc around 5k-1k area, they get into this zone where winning is more important than learning and playing your best game, and that is why they will never improve. I flatly refuse to play an opponent who does not want to play the best game we can, the kind who would rather win on a misclick than lose but learn. I give undos for misclicks, and demand the same. If you have to ask "how can you tell it is a misclick" it means you arent very strong, usually you can tell there are only 3-4 possible moves during midgame fighting, and if they do something stupid its a misclick. I have never had a bad experince with anyone asking me for undos, except in teaching games people want to review during the game and go from the best variation if we review during play, which is why I only review after the game now.


Like I said, if you get mad when you have to let the opponent undo because their computer messed up, you must be too focused on the win and therefore not be thinking about getting better enough, have fun staying at the same level. Asian cultures would of course allow for undo if misclick, althought many of them wouldn't ask for one That is part of their strength.

[Shaddy]

@NoSkill:

On Tygem and WBaduk it's very rare for me to get an undo aside from a play on the second or first line on the first or second moves, and I make obvious misclicks a lot.

[emeraldemon]

What is it that's causing all these misclicks? Bad trackpad settings? Glitchy client? Itchy trigger finger?

[NoSkill]

What is it that's causing all these misclicks? Bad trackpad settings? Glitchy client? Itchy trigger finger?

With a mousepad like mine it just randomly clicks sometimes (the blue ball in the center of the keyboard is really annoying as well for misclicks...)

Also if you check another window like me, you end up misclicking too sometimes. Just mousepad errors mostly.. or people on phones.

On a pc... it might happen but not as much

[Phelan]

I've only ever asked for an undo once. I was playing on a tablet on KGS and managed to press pass rather than confirm (for those unfamiliar, you click an intersection and then press confirm). I've never understood why the pass button is so large and placed where it is.

I've had this happen a few times. It does seem strange. I think I've posted in the KGS forum asking for some sort of pass confirmation for the android app.
Most times this happened I asked for an undo and it was granted, but once it wasn't. This annoyed me a lot. When is a pass in the middle of a game anything other than a misclick?

I usually don't ask for undos, unless it is a game critical misclick. I'm not offended if my opponent denies them, except for that mispass case.

As for granting, I'm usually more lenient, I allow almost all undos unless my opponent keeps requesting too many. I don't even think in the case of obvious misclicks, those I grant automatically.

Then again, I never play blitz, or anything under 20 min + 3*30s.

[Phelan]

I have never had a bad experince with anyone asking me for undos, except in teaching games people want to review during the game and go from the best variation if we review during play, which is why I only review after the game now.

I think this is the big difference in your perspective. If someone played an across the board ladder that doesn't work, and then wanted to undo the whole ladder, would you allow it? It is clearly "something stupid" by that player.

If you wouldn't allow it then, would you allow it if he asked after continuing for two moves? Would you allow it if they weren't two consecutive moves? Would you ask for an undo in the above cases?
I don't think it is as clear cut as you put it, and find your comments are slightly(at least) insulting towards those that don't like to grant undos.

One thing is to undo something in a teaching match, another to do so in a competitive one.

What is it that's causing all these misclicks? Bad trackpad settings? Glitchy client? Itchy trigger finger?

With a mousepad like mine it just randomly clicks sometimes (the blue ball in the center of the keyboard is really annoying as well for misclicks...)

Also if you check another window like me, you end up misclicking too sometimes. Just mousepad errors mostly.. or people on phones.

On a pc... it might happen but not as much

I disabled my trackpad's tap to click a long time ago because of misclicks. I think this was even before playing on KGS. It's too annoying to be moving the cursor and have it click something that wasn't intended.

[NoSkill]

I have never had a bad experince with anyone asking me for undos, except in teaching games people want to review during the game and go from the best variation if we review during play, which is why I only review after the game now.

I think this is the big difference in your perspective. If someone played an across the board ladder that doesn't work, and then wanted to undo the whole ladder, would you allow it? It is clearly "something stupid" by that player.

If you wouldn't allow it then, would you allow it if he asked after continuing for two moves? Would you allow it if they weren't two consecutive moves? Would you ask for an undo in the above cases?
I don't think it is as clear cut as you put it, and find your comments are slightly(at least) insulting towards those that don't like to grant undos.

One thing is to undo something in a teaching match, another to do so in a competitive one.

What is it that's causing all these misclicks? Bad trackpad settings? Glitchy client? Itchy trigger finger?

With a mousepad like mine it just randomly clicks sometimes (the blue ball in the center of the keyboard is really annoying as well for misclicks...)

Also if you check another window like me, you end up misclicking too sometimes. Just mousepad errors mostly.. or people on phones.

On a pc... it might happen but not as much

I disabled my trackpad's tap to click a long time ago because of misclicks. I think this was even before playing on KGS. It's too annoying to be moving the cursor and have it click something that wasn't intended.

You aren't thinking correctly. The argument about playing out a whole sequence and then asking for an undo is not even valid. We are talking about undoing a MISCLICK. Not like a whole sequence, obviously noone would allow an undo for that.

All my comments assume it was one move and the undo was requested directly after that move. I believe if it is requested before they play another move, the other player should have to allow the undo unless it looks like a misthink, which is very rare. Like I said, noone has ever asked me for an undo that I didn't give them, because I believe everyone is honest.

To not allow an undo for a misclick is insulting and I usually escape or resign and leave, if you can't trust the other player or want a cheap win go play someone else.

[Horibe]

[All my comments assume it was one move and the undo was requested directly after that move. I believe if it is requested before they play another move, the other player should have to allow the undo unless it looks like a misthink, which is very rare. Like I said, noone has ever asked me for an undo that I didn't give them, because I believe everyone is honest.

To not allow an undo for a misclick is insulting and I usually escape or resign and leave, if you can't trust the other player or want a cheap win go play someone else.

I like to think everyone is honest too, like if they agree to play a game, they will make every effort to finish it, and not escape.

Yes I give undos for obvious misclicks. That is why I NEVER ask for them. If a misclick is obvious, and I or my opponent says "whoops" or whatever, then it would be nice if the opponent performed an undo.

But I never ask, because, clearly, the judge for what is a misclick has to be the opponent, not the misclicker. And there is no question in my mind that people have lied to me online about there atari being a misclick when they failed to notice they were in atari themselves.

And I agree - if you are playing 10 seconds a move - in the zone - it is a huge disadvantage if your opponent can be careless with his mouse, and break your concentration with the request. And arguments that someone is trying to win cheap in blitz are absurd - the whole exercise is simply an exercise and should not be taken seriously (or rated in my opinion).

To me, asking for an undo is offputting, particularly if it is unclear, but regardless - it breaks the mood. Its like the rule that a player hit the clock with the same hand. I have played a long time, and the rule is ingrained in me. Obviously, in a face to face blitz game or in byo yomi it is an important rule. But at the beginning of a 2 hour per player game it is not important at all. BUT - everytime you do it wrong - I notice and I am distracted. Having to think about whether it was really a misclick or a typo is not what I intended to think about when I agree to play with someone.

[emeraldemon]

I disabled my trackpad's tap to click a long time ago because of misclicks. I think this was even before playing on KGS. It's too annoying to be moving the cursor and have it click something that wasn't intended.

For me this is part of the problem with "misclicks". NoSkill's argument seems to be that misclicks are somehow an unavoidable part of internet go, but I don't think that's true. If you care enough to want good games online, you can care enough to have mouse settings that don't misclick.

Also I think hovering the mouse over intersections is a bad habit; it encourages misclicks and tempts you to play before you've thought out the move. To me a misclick is almost like a real life opponent grabbing a stone from the bowl and hovering his hand over the board while he thinks. If he then occasionally drops the stone onto the board at the wrong place, would you accept it as a necessary part of go?

I never play on mobile devices, so I can't speak to the difficulty of input there. But if it caused me to misclick, I don't think I would do it.