Missclick undo?

[NoSkill]

I think that the only right way to approach it is to compare it to real life, if it wouldnt happen in real life, such as not allowing someone to take back a stone that accidentally got knocked out of their bowl and landed on the board, then it shouldnt happen online. To insist upon such technicality and bureacratic nonsense is silly.

Would you allow someone in a real life tournament to place a stone, let it go, and then pick it up and play it again?
Or take the stone, place it without releasing, and move it about to see where it looks better?

That's a possible analogy to real life you're not considering.

Ah but we arent talking about undos in general. We are talking about undo's for MISCLICKS.

To the above quotes, I still stand for them and they are exactly like I said. If you don't give undo for misclick then you are never going to improve, because your mindset is wrong. If you continue down this path any strong player will have no problem with you, even a weak player who has good respect and fighting spirit is dangerous, but someone who won't give undo for misclick, or uses time-suji etc. is no problem to deal with.

[Kaya.gs]

Barely touching this subject, i think anyone should be generous with undo. Not only with misclicks, but also misthinks, or whatever.

Go is a game where you cannot lose a situation if you dont play a bad move. Even if your opponent misread, or didnt think of one of your moves, even if you give him the undo, you will not lose the game because of it.

I've been frequently asked for undos after such scenarios and i mostly give it anyway. In fact, at risk of sometimes making my opponent upset, i still offer undos when they played an obvious mistake or blunder. Many people on Kaya have seen this first hand with me, particularly on handicap games, regardless of the outcome of the game itself.

Of course, getting constantly asked for undos is obnoxious and ruins the experience, which is what bothers me the most.

Also, on blitz games, all the misthink "gibberish" is part of the game, so asking for undos for other than misclick takes too much time to bother to do it.

I can imagine a scenario where a player can be very jealous about not giving an undo and its about preparing a trap: he invests things into a trap he knows the way to get out of, but his profit is only found if the opponent doesnt have that information.
Giving undo would mean giving that information for free.
But i find that way of playing unadvisable.

Couldnt help myself from answering this thread .

Regards.

[xed_over]

Ah but we arent talking about undos in general. We are talking about undo's for MISCLICKS.

but how do you identify a misclick? they aren't always obvious. that's the issue most people have, and if we don't agree with our opponent, are we calling them a liar?

so to avoid the dispute (and avoid being hypocritical), many people prefer to just to disallow altogether.

[NoSkill]

Ah but we arent talking about undos in general. We are talking about undo's for MISCLICKS.

but how do you identify a misclick? they aren't always obvious. that's the issue most people have, and if we don't agree with our opponent, are we calling them a liar?

so to avoid the dispute (and avoid being hypocritical), many people prefer to just to disallow altogether.

See I think this is wrong.

1. I can tell a misclick from a non-misclick, ive never had a problem telling them apart.

2. Even if I couldn't tell, I would allow all not the opposite. Allowing all undo if they request before playing another move is fine, im not saying to let them do ANY undo as in like 2 in a row. One undo, not two in a row, before any other move is played. If you feel it wasnt a misclick simply say this "Only undo for misclick" and let them undo this one.

3. I said not two in a row, but if they misclick twice in a game (as in one on move 40 and one like 100 moves later... not one on move 40 and one on move 42) I would allow undo for both, since they are misclicks. If they are both questionable I would say something to them about it but allow both probably.

4. But if they keep asking, say twice undo in a row, or ask for undo when it looks like it isnt a misclick all the time, then I would say "no I don't believe you can misclick that much".

[Annihilist]

There is only one answer to this: Undo for misclicks. Here is why:

People who don't undo for misclicks end up getting this greedy ideaology that a win is a win, and etc. That leads down a bad path, you lose your drive to improve and forget your goals.

If you ask me, playing an honest, fair game is the best way to improve because you don't have to think "should i have undo" "should... etc" and you aren't afraid of losing. It is the best.

Also, if the game was in real-life would you have misclicks? Go wasn't a game made online.

For a follow up: http://youtu.be/3C7gKinR7Ts?t=3m19s

Look at sai's reaction to hikaru, about a "misclick"

I agree with this. This was my thinking.

But...

It is just my opinion that if you try to win by means other than playing better you are a low-life. In my mind if you even think "was that really a misclick" or "did he really lie" you are unconfident in your own ability to win and are never going to improve. Like I said, those who don't grand misclicks are weak and I feel like I would have no problem beating them no matter how strong they are, if they think of go as some sort of sport where you try to take advantage of a technicality to win.

In my mind someone asks me for an undo right after they move I grant it, then if I even start to think "was it really a misclick" I remind myself "So what you are trying to win from a mouse mistake or even their misread and you aren't strong enough to beat them without them making a mistake? Then you should have just resigned if you needed them to mess up"

Plain and simple. I see no difference between marking alive stones dead at the end trying to get them to click done in order to win and not undoing a misclick. Both are trying to win based off the opponent being careless or misclicking. i would also throw in playing bad moves waiting for the opponent to make a misread or mistake and die when you are 50 points behind in this boat, you people who do this are nothing and I would love to play you anyday to boost my rank.

Fair players will always win, and if you have to ask if allowing an undo for a misclick is fair then you obviously need to reconsider your priorities in go.

I think this is a little extreme. I highly doubt you are the prime authority on go virtues. On principle, I think you are exactly right - to decline misclick undos is expecting to win based not on skill or game ability, and somehow expecting that to be equally valid as any other win.

But I think you're a little too cynical - to mark live stones dead deliberately, then getting your opponent to hit "done" to give you a win is obviously a deliberate lie and a malicious, deceitful act. Declining an undo for a misclick, I think, is more due to naïvety, not malice.

Also there is something to be said for the idea that "what is played is final", and the onus is on the player to ensure he places his stone correctly. So bear in mind your judgement may not be the final one.

[Annihilist]

Barely touching this subject, i think anyone should be generous with undo. Not only with misclicks, but also misthinks, or whatever.

Go is a game where you cannot lose a situation if you dont play a bad move. Even if your opponent misread, or didnt think of one of your moves, even if you give him the undo, you will not lose the game because of it.

I've been frequently asked for undos after such scenarios and i mostly give it anyway. In fact, at risk of sometimes making my opponent upset, i still offer undos when they played an obvious mistake or blunder. Many people on Kaya have seen this first hand with me, particularly on handicap games, regardless of the outcome of the game itself.

Of course, getting constantly asked for undos is obnoxious and ruins the experience, which is what bothers me the most.

Also, on blitz games, all the misthink "gibberish" is part of the game, so asking for undos for other than misclick takes too much time to bother to do it.

I can imagine a scenario where a player can be very jealous about not giving an undo and its about preparing a trap: he invests things into a trap he knows the way to get out of, but his profit is only found if the opponent doesnt have that information.
Giving undo would mean giving that information for free.
But i find that way of playing unadvisable.

Couldnt help myself from answering this thread .

Regards.

It is more valuable to play on from a misthink and see how the situation pans out. A lot of learning to be done, and if the sequence can be embedded into your memory, it can help your reading of similar situations. A lot to be learned from making mistakes.

[NoSkill]

There is only one answer to this: Undo for misclicks. Here is why:

People who don't undo for misclicks end up getting this greedy ideaology that a win is a win, and etc. That leads down a bad path, you lose your drive to improve and forget your goals.

If you ask me, playing an honest, fair game is the best way to improve because you don't have to think "should i have undo" "should... etc" and you aren't afraid of losing. It is the best.

Also, if the game was in real-life would you have misclicks? Go wasn't a game made online.

For a follow up: http://youtu.be/3C7gKinR7Ts?t=3m19s

Look at sai's reaction to hikaru, about a "misclick"

I agree with this. This was my thinking.

But...

It is just my opinion that if you try to win by means other than playing better you are a low-life. In my mind if you even think "was that really a misclick" or "did he really lie" you are unconfident in your own ability to win and are never going to improve. Like I said, those who don't grand misclicks are weak and I feel like I would have no problem beating them no matter how strong they are, if they think of go as some sort of sport where you try to take advantage of a technicality to win.

In my mind someone asks me for an undo right after they move I grant it, then if I even start to think "was it really a misclick" I remind myself "So what you are trying to win from a mouse mistake or even their misread and you aren't strong enough to beat them without them making a mistake? Then you should have just resigned if you needed them to mess up"

Plain and simple. I see no difference between marking alive stones dead at the end trying to get them to click done in order to win and not undoing a misclick. Both are trying to win based off the opponent being careless or misclicking. i would also throw in playing bad moves waiting for the opponent to make a misread or mistake and die when you are 50 points behind in this boat, you people who do this are nothing and I would love to play you anyday to boost my rank.

Fair players will always win, and if you have to ask if allowing an undo for a misclick is fair then you obviously need to reconsider your priorities in go.

I think this is a little extreme. I highly doubt you are the prime authority on go virtues. On principle, I think you are exactly right - to decline misclick undos is expecting to win based not on skill or game ability, and somehow expecting that to be equally valid as any other win.

But I think you're a little too cynical - to mark live stones dead deliberately, then getting your opponent to hit "done" to give you a win is obviously a deliberate lie and a malicious, deceitful act. Declining an undo for a misclick, I think, is more due to naïvety, not malice.

Also there is something to be said for the idea that "what is played is final", and the onus is on the player to ensure he places his stone correctly. So bear in mind your judgement may not be the final one.

Yes it is a bit extreme, when I argue I get too into it . I still do say that you won't improve if you don't allow undo for an obvious misclick though, that kind of thinking won't work.

However, if they want to that is fine, just be ready for people to escape for unfair behavior.

Sorry if I got a bit rude with some comments earlier

[lemmata]

I always allow undos but I never ask for undos. This is not because of some moral imperative but because that is my preference; it suits the goals I have in mind for my own go.

This should be a matter of personal preference and we should all respect each other's personal preferences.

It seems extreme to think less of an opponent because he has asked for an undo. Simply refuse it if you don't like it. There is no need to grandstand and moralize. By the same token, it seems extreme to think that refusing an undo request is due to small-mindedness or an only-winning-matters mentality. Again, there is no need to grandstand and moralize.

I think that
1) the people who complain about others not giving them undos
2) and the people who complain about others asking them for undos
would be much happier if they accepted the fact that everyone is different and that they are not infallible arbiters of morality on the go board.

What's the point of playing such a fun game if such trivial things frustrate you?

[NoSkill]

I always allow undos but I never ask for undos. This is not because of some moral imperative but because that is my preference; it suits the goals I have in mind for my own go.

This should be a matter of personal preference and we should all respect each other's personal preferences.

It seems extreme to think less of an opponent because he has asked for an undo. Simply refuse it if you don't like it. There is no need to grandstand and moralize. By the same token, it seems extreme to think that refusing an undo request is due to small-mindedness or an only-winning-matters mentality. Again, there is no need to grandstand and moralize.

I think that
1) the people who complain about others not giving them undos
2) and the people who complain about others asking them for undos
would be much happier if they accepted the fact that everyone is different and that they are not infallible arbiters of morality on the go board.

What's the point of playing such a fun game if such trivial things frustrate you?

Right but some of us like me play go with people in order to improve, hoping to make our go as strong as we can, study hard and etc. If some opponent decides to now allow an undo for a misclick I did, or if he misclicks and won't ask for an undo I find it to be annoying and break down the purpose of playing.

The second kind of person, who won't ask for an undo, I usually tell them to undo if they misclick and I can tell. The first kind, I just resign and leave or escape, due to the fact even if I win, the game is broken and I don't find it to be a way for me to improve my go efficiently.

[Annihilist]

I always allow undos but I never ask for undos. This is not because of some moral imperative but because that is my preference; it suits the goals I have in mind for my own go.

This should be a matter of personal preference and we should all respect each other's personal preferences.

It seems extreme to think less of an opponent because he has asked for an undo. Simply refuse it if you don't like it. There is no need to grandstand and moralize. By the same token, it seems extreme to think that refusing an undo request is due to small-mindedness or an only-winning-matters mentality. Again, there is no need to grandstand and moralize.

I think that
1) the people who complain about others not giving them undos
2) and the people who complain about others asking them for undos
would be much happier if they accepted the fact that everyone is different and that they are not infallible arbiters of morality on the go board.

What's the point of playing such a fun game if such trivial things frustrate you?

Right but some of us like me play go with people in order to improve, hoping to make our go as strong as we can, study hard and etc. If some opponent decides to now allow an undo for a misclick I did, or if he misclicks and won't ask for an undo I find it to be annoying and break down the purpose of playing.

The second kind of person, who won't ask for an undo, I usually tell them to undo if they misclick and I can tell. The first kind, I just resign and leave or escape, due to the fact even if I win, the game is broken and I don't find it to be a way for me to improve my go efficiently.

Seconded.

The game is a game of mental, intellectual, intuitive and analytical skill. Not of hand-eye coordination. Therefore, it is pointless to accept a win from an opponent's poor coordination as valid.

[Annihilist]

There is only one answer to this: Undo for misclicks. Here is why:

People who don't undo for misclicks end up getting this greedy ideaology that a win is a win, and etc. That leads down a bad path, you lose your drive to improve and forget your goals.

If you ask me, playing an honest, fair game is the best way to improve because you don't have to think "should i have undo" "should... etc" and you aren't afraid of losing. It is the best.

Also, if the game was in real-life would you have misclicks? Go wasn't a game made online.

For a follow up: http://youtu.be/3C7gKinR7Ts?t=3m19s

Look at sai's reaction to hikaru, about a "misclick"

I agree with this. This was my thinking.

But...

It is just my opinion that if you try to win by means other than playing better you are a low-life. In my mind if you even think "was that really a misclick" or "did he really lie" you are unconfident in your own ability to win and are never going to improve. Like I said, those who don't grand misclicks are weak and I feel like I would have no problem beating them no matter how strong they are, if they think of go as some sort of sport where you try to take advantage of a technicality to win.

In my mind someone asks me for an undo right after they move I grant it, then if I even start to think "was it really a misclick" I remind myself "So what you are trying to win from a mouse mistake or even their misread and you aren't strong enough to beat them without them making a mistake? Then you should have just resigned if you needed them to mess up"

Plain and simple. I see no difference between marking alive stones dead at the end trying to get them to click done in order to win and not undoing a misclick. Both are trying to win based off the opponent being careless or misclicking. i would also throw in playing bad moves waiting for the opponent to make a misread or mistake and die when you are 50 points behind in this boat, you people who do this are nothing and I would love to play you anyday to boost my rank.

Fair players will always win, and if you have to ask if allowing an undo for a misclick is fair then you obviously need to reconsider your priorities in go.

I think this is a little extreme. I highly doubt you are the prime authority on go virtues. On principle, I think you are exactly right - to decline misclick undos is expecting to win based not on skill or game ability, and somehow expecting that to be equally valid as any other win.

But I think you're a little too cynical - to mark live stones dead deliberately, then getting your opponent to hit "done" to give you a win is obviously a deliberate lie and a malicious, deceitful act. Declining an undo for a misclick, I think, is more due to naïvety, not malice.

Also there is something to be said for the idea that "what is played is final", and the onus is on the player to ensure he places his stone correctly. So bear in mind your judgement may not be the final one.

Yes it is a bit extreme, when I argue I get too into it . I still do say that you won't improve if you don't allow undo for an obvious misclick though, that kind of thinking won't work.

However, if they want to that is fine, just be ready for people to escape for unfair behavior.

Sorry if I got a bit rude with some comments earlier

I think escaping is worse to be honest. Alright, in a free game I can maybe look the other way, but in a ranked game it's sort of accepted that you play the cards you're dealt. You should stick to your game, accept you are in a bad situation, and try to overcome it and make the best of it. And if your opponent declines, it is a test of character to continue and make the best of what you have. And you have the knowledge your opponent is less strong in either character or skill, so you get an ego trip there.

I wish to contest your point, though, with an example of a game I played. I made a horrible, horrible misclick which allowed my opponent to take a quarter of the board. They had a large, heavy group which was pretty much dead until I played one space away from continuing a ladder. This allowed them to live in this area, and i lost ~30 or 40 points, maybe? Maybe more, I'm not sure.

Anyway, I managed to work around it and eventually win the game. I think I learned a lot more, by being able to work around a bad situation and still finish well. When one makes a mistake, it is a great skill to be able to compensate for it. So I think there are merits on both sides.

[NoSkill]

Maybe in a beginners game, but a misclick in a dan level game, especially in the middle of a fight..... it can oftentimes end the game by itself.

[tchan001]

Even 9p lose games by making a game losing mistake like self atari, do you think they get an undo for such an obvious mistake? Just live with it that some people give undos and some people don't. You can have the opinion that people should give undos but please keep the tone of your argument down so you do not demean those who choose not to give undos.

[Annihilist]

Even 9p lose games by making a game losing mistake like self atari, do you think they get an undo for such an obvious mistake? Just live with it that some people give undos and some people don't. You can have the opinion that people should give undos but please keep the tone of your argument down so you do not demean those who choose not to give undos.

It's not about obvious mistakes. It's about a slip of the hand.

[Yuc4h]

During my whole go playing career I have never missclicked in any of my games. How can it be so difficult to put the mouse in the square you want to play and click it?

If everyone would pay sufficient attention to what they are doing, there would be no missclicks of any kind. KGS even has the anti-missclick feature. If NoSkill argues that it is impossible to improve past certain point if you don't allow missclicks, I might as well argue that it is impossible to improve past a certain point if you don't even have enough patience and concentration ability to click the right damn intersection.