Missclick undo?

[golem7]

Actually I don't understand all the commotion. Practically everyone has stated that he/she will grant undo for obvious misclicks.

The problem is that they are not always obvious when playing online, especially in close fighting situations when candidate moves are right next to each other. And there are players that ask for undos for mistakes, albeit not many. So although I tend to allow undos, if my opponent says "no undos" beforehand, then I can accept that.

Btw @noskill: If you really think only fair-minded players can become strong, you're living in a fantasy world. There are high dan douchebags as well as beginner douchebags. Being good at go doesn't make you a better person.

[NoSkill]

During my whole go playing career I have never missclicked in any of my games. How can it be so difficult to put the mouse in the square you want to play and click it?

If everyone would pay sufficient attention to what they are doing, there would be no missclicks of any kind. KGS even has the anti-missclick feature. If NoSkill argues that it is impossible to improve past certain point if you don't allow missclicks, I might as well argue that it is impossible to improve past a certain point if you don't even have enough patience and concentration ability to click the right damn intersection.

Reading posts like this is what makes me want to say the demeaning things, because I highly think bad of you.

A misclick is not because someone clicked the wrong square, nor is it for an obvious mistake tami. Both of you make me so frustrated because you fail to even grasp the concept of the topic before replying.

A misclick= Can be a person clicking the wrong square yes, but MOST of the time it is not their fault, IE dog bumps them.... mouse freezes or clicks somewhere else, mousepad, on and and on.

A human error or misread or self-atari= not a misclick tami.



If you think that non-honest people become pros I would agree, but I am saying that the true best players are the honest and true to the game players, such as lee seedol. You can tell he is a good person from listening to him.


In the end like I said, I just think you are not stupid, but perhaps...confused or not sure if you don't give undos for misclicks and I feel bad for you. If are not confused and say "a stone is final" then you are just in the wrong mindset and I also feel bad for you. I do not mean this in an insulting way this time, but I just don't think you can possibly get stronger this way. If you worry about so many small details like "did he misclick" how can you possibly be thinking about improving?

[lemmata]

I always allow undos but I never ask for undos. This is not because of some moral imperative but because that is my preference; it suits the goals I have in mind for my own go.

This should be a matter of personal preference and we should all respect each other's personal preferences.

It seems extreme to think less of an opponent because he has asked for an undo. Simply refuse it if you don't like it. There is no need to grandstand and moralize. By the same token, it seems extreme to think that refusing an undo request is due to small-mindedness or an only-winning-matters mentality. Again, there is no need to grandstand and moralize.

I think that
1) the people who complain about others not giving them undos
2) and the people who complain about others asking them for undos
would be much happier if they accepted the fact that everyone is different and that they are not infallible arbiters of morality on the go board.

What's the point of playing such a fun game if such trivial things frustrate you?

Right but some of us like me play go with people in order to improve, hoping to make our go as strong as we can, study hard and etc. If some opponent decides to now allow an undo for a misclick I did, or if he misclicks and won't ask for an undo I find it to be annoying and break down the purpose of playing.

The second kind of person, who won't ask for an undo, I usually tell them to undo if they misclick and I can tell. The first kind, I just resign and leave or escape, due to the fact even if I win, the game is broken and I don't find it to be a way for me to improve my go efficiently.

I think that you are being a bit too harsh. The game of go can be more than about just becoming strong at the game. It can also build character and help overcome personality flaws. There are people who might refuse to request undos on the basis that they must train their hearts to accept situations they cannot change in real life. There are people who might refuse to accept undo requests as a matter of training themselves to stop being pushovers in other aspects of life. To think that you can look into the minds of these people and know what they are thinking is a bit of a stretch. Now, I do think that some people reveal a poor attitude via the things that they write in the chat window in the aftermath of an undo request, but we cannot generalize.

Also, as we have seen in this thread people have differing opinions about whether accepting undos for misclicks is indeed the best way to improve. In such cases, even you would agree that the people refusing undos may have the same goals that you have for go. They merely have a different opinion on the best way to improve. You might think that this opinion is incorrect, but that's life. People disagree with each other. Perhaps a game ruined by a misclick will not help your go. However, it may help build character; learning not to become annoyed when someone refuses an undo may help you prepare for the unexpected ups and downs of life.

[NoSkill]

I always allow undos but I never ask for undos. This is not because of some moral imperative but because that is my preference; it suits the goals I have in mind for my own go.

This should be a matter of personal preference and we should all respect each other's personal preferences.

It seems extreme to think less of an opponent because he has asked for an undo. Simply refuse it if you don't like it. There is no need to grandstand and moralize. By the same token, it seems extreme to think that refusing an undo request is due to small-mindedness or an only-winning-matters mentality. Again, there is no need to grandstand and moralize.

I think that
1) the people who complain about others not giving them undos
2) and the people who complain about others asking them for undos
would be much happier if they accepted the fact that everyone is different and that they are not infallible arbiters of morality on the go board.

What's the point of playing such a fun game if such trivial things frustrate you?

Right but some of us like me play go with people in order to improve, hoping to make our go as strong as we can, study hard and etc. If some opponent decides to now allow an undo for a misclick I did, or if he misclicks and won't ask for an undo I find it to be annoying and break down the purpose of playing.

The second kind of person, who won't ask for an undo, I usually tell them to undo if they misclick and I can tell. The first kind, I just resign and leave or escape, due to the fact even if I win, the game is broken and I don't find it to be a way for me to improve my go efficiently.

I think that you are being a bit too harsh. The game of go can be more than about just becoming strong at the game. It can also build character and help overcome personality flaws. There are people who might refuse to request undos on the basis that they must train their hearts to accept situations they cannot change in real life. There are people who might refuse to accept undo requests as a matter of training themselves to stop being pushovers in other aspects of life. To think that you can look into the minds of these people and know what they are thinking is a bit of a stretch. Now, I do think that some people reveal a poor attitude via the things that they write in the chat window in the aftermath of an undo request, but we cannot generalize.

Also, as we have seen in this thread people have differing opinions about whether accepting undos for misclicks is indeed the best way to improve. In such cases, even you would agree that the people refusing undos may have the same goals that you have for go. They merely have a different opinion on the best way to improve. You might think that this opinion is incorrect, but that's life. People disagree with each other. Perhaps a game ruined by a misclick will not help your go. However, it may help build character; learning not to become annoyed when someone refuses an undo may help you prepare for the unexpected ups and downs of life.

I think that view on life itself is wrong. In my opinion the whole "accept life has some things you can't change" is wrong. I flat out don't go with it or believe it at all. People who believe that are pushovers who gave given up.

In my opinion you will do everything you can to get what you want in life, everyone should try hard, do the right thing, etc. Do some people do bad? Yes. Does that mean you should? No. If something happens you can always do something about it, life may not be easy but you shouldn't be so quick to give up.

I also think that if you need to decline undo requests to not be a pushover, you definitely are one and need to see some professional help somewhere else.

Trying to make accepting or declining undos into some debateable topic or zen thing is silly, its simple. If you are a fair player you will allow an undo for a misclick. If they are asking for undos for non-misclicks it is another topic. If you can't tell whether it is an undo and are a fair player you would allow an undo. There is no ifs and or buts about this in my mind. Once again, if you think you are getting better by declining what may be a mis-read or misclick but you can't tell you are wrong. That means you need the opponent to make a mistake to win, and you are allowing yourself to become weaker, as well as walking into the wrong mindset. Does this mean you allow an undo for a move 3 moves later? No. It is too late and obviously not a misclick at that point.

[lemmata]

Looks like I am not changing your mind, so I think that I will just let our disagreement stand as is. That said, I will say this, if you get annoyed by an opponent refusing an undo request, you are only causing yourself needless hurt, even if your opponent is being petty by refusing the request. It's just better to forgive, forget, and move on. The opponent is not going to change his mind because you are annoyed by his decision.

[Annihilist]

I think that you are being a bit too harsh. The game of go can be more than about just becoming strong at the game. It can also build character and help overcome personality flaws. There are people who might refuse to request undos on the basis that they must train their hearts to accept situations they cannot change in real life. There are people who might refuse to accept undo requests as a matter of training themselves to stop being pushovers in other aspects of life. To think that you can look into the minds of these people and know what they are thinking is a bit of a stretch. Now, I do think that some people reveal a poor attitude via the things that they write in the chat window in the aftermath of an undo request, but we cannot generalize.

Also, as we have seen in this thread people have differing opinions about whether accepting undos for misclicks is indeed the best way to improve. In such cases, even you would agree that the people refusing undos may have the same goals that you have for go. They merely have a different opinion on the best way to improve. You might think that this opinion is incorrect, but that's life. People disagree with each other. Perhaps a game ruined by a misclick will not help your go. However, it may help build character; learning not to become annoyed when someone refuses an undo may help you prepare for the unexpected ups and downs of life.

Some very interesting perspectives. Thank you.