How do you 'see' and retain stone positions while reading

jts · Post by **jts** » Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:42 am

snorri wrote:Warning: do not attempt ... when you are supposed to be listening to your S.O.

Yes, a simple problem like this won't last you nearly long enough. I suggest replaying through a few games.

Splatted · Post by **Splatted** » Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:24 am

ivanzypher wrote:
Splatted wrote:I think trying to remember anything is going about it the wrong way. My reading is pretty awful, but I get much better results from trying to visualise the changing board situatiion. I'm still doing the "he goes there I go there" thing, but instead of looking at the board and trying to remember which intersections have which colour stones on them, I make a mental image of the (local) board position and add stones to that.

Hi Splatted

I'm sorry, you've made me a bit confused :p

Lol, sorry it was the middle of the night

Honestly though, I think my lack of clarity may be partly caused by my lack of understanding of what good reading is, so don't give too much weight to what I say. I might not have commented at all except that your description of how you read sounded very like how I used to do it, and I have found that to be a very difficult way of doing things.

ivanzypher wrote:You say that trying to remember anything is going about it the wrong way... But surely we have to remember, i.e. commit changes to memory, in order for us not to forget what the previous move (i.e. change) was, and so on, in our reading, right?

I agree with trying to visualise the changing board situation. When you say make a mental image of the local board position and add stones to that (instead of trying to remember which intersections have which colour stones on them), could you expand on that a bit? How is adding stones to a local board position different? Do you mean all at once and then try to work out a sequence which tries to accomplish that?

The reason I say you don't have to remember where you placed a stone is because it should be part of the image you've created i.e. You should be seeing the board as if there is a stone there. It's very hard to describe how this is different from looking at the board at trying to remember where there are stones and/or what shapes they form, because back when that's what I was doing I actually thought was visualising it.

Here's an example that may or may not make this easier to understand. You're white and you want to tenuki here, but you want to know if black can live if you do. (You don't need to bother solving the problem if you don't want to)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X O . . . . . $$ | . X O . . . . . . $$ | X X O , . . . . . $$ | . O O . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Black can create a ko like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ------------------ $$ | . 3 2 . . . . . . $$ | 1 4 X O . . . . . $$ | . X O . . . . . . $$ | X X O , . . . . . $$ | . O O . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

With my old method of reading that would look like this:

Step 3:

Step 4:

I don't know if that is what you were doing, but I would often work read things out this way, and then have difficulty remembering where I had placed stones and what colours they were.

Instead, I think it's better to read things like this:

Step 1:

Step 2:

Step 3:

Step 4:

If you do it like this then it's not an issue of remembering where you've played, but rather of maintaining the image in your head. It's difficult, but since the stone you added 4 moves ago is just as much a part of that image as the stone you've just added, it removes the need to remember where you've played. (For me at least, it's still not as clear as looking at a position once it's been played out though.)

I think snorri's recommendation to attempt problems without looking at the board is a good one, because it's basically how I stumbled upon this kind of reading (I was attempting to read out variations in my Malkovich game while not at the computer), but I think that's just for practice and it's still okay to look at the board when reading because that's what pros seem to do.

Sorry for the excessively long post. I hope I haven't made things more confusing. :mrgreen:

Li Kao · Post by **Li Kao** » Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:54 am

One thing I do to train my visualization is playing games on small boards(such as 5x5) against myself in my mind, trying to read it out completely, just like a go problem.

TheBigH · Post by **TheBigH** » Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:07 pm

I have recently started playing out josekis in my mind. This helps me visualise the positions of several stones at once. I also try to think about the meaning of each of the joseki moves, and try to work out how to punish deviations from the joseki. That has been good for my reading.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:22 pm

Problem:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X O . . . . . $$ | . X O . . . . . . $$ | X X O , . . . . . $$ | . O O . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Reading:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ------------------ $$ | . B . . . . . . . $$ | W . X O . . . . . $$ | . X O . . . . . . $$ | X X O , . . . . . $$ | . O O . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ------------------ $$ | . B W . . . . . . $$ | W B X O . . . . . $$ | . X O . . . . . . $$ | X X O , . . . . . $$ | . O O . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ------------------ $$ | . W W . . . . . . $$ | B B X O . . . . . $$ | . X O . . . . . . $$ | X X O , . . . . . $$ | . O O . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ------------------ $$ | W . B . . . . . . $$ | W B X O . . . . . $$ | . X O . . . . . . $$ | X X O , . . . . . $$ | . O O . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ------------------ $$ | . B W . . . . . . $$ | B . X O . . . . . $$ | . X O . . . . . . $$ | X X O , . . . . . $$ | . O O . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Just looking at the diagrams, don't you know the move order?

Edit: You can't like your own post. But I like this one. :mrgreen:

tapir · Post by **tapir** » Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:28 am

Don't (mentally) talk to yourself when you try to read. Instead of "I move here, then he plays there, and where was my first stone?" you end up with just visualizing the added stones (on top of the board). This already helps a lot (although not perfect for under-the-stone sequences), I guess because the "verbalizing" distracts from the actual reading.

A perfect illustration is in Hikaru no Go anime the first real game Hikaru and Akira play when Hikaru is visualizing a sequence and upon seeing what happens he responds both correctly and quick (Akira thinks "He is as strong as a strong professional." upon noticing it.). I am not sure whether it was intended or whether this visual thing was just natural in an anime, but I started reading much better in games when I consciously tried to stop "verbalizing" when reading.

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:53 am

tapir wrote:[...] I guess because the "verbalizing" distracts from the actual reading.

As I started Go, sadly I was pointed towards Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go and Kageyama tells in his first chapter to read out ladders like Black-White-Black-White-Black-.... I followed his advice.
It might have helped me then (I couldn't read his ladders, so who knows?); by now it is a burden. For me, visualizing and verbalizing isn't in synch most of the time. So I mutter "Black-White-Black-..." but in my head I'm somewhere different and start to lose the image of the stones. It is very hard to let go an old habit : (

Somewhat related is a habit, which I credit to doing too many problems: The solution is given in numbers, Black 1 here, White 2 there and so on. Now I often find myself thinking in numbers instead of stones and - again - I start muttering, but now it is "1-2-3-4-..."

tapir · Post by **tapir** » Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:45 am

It might be that writing a book Kageyama just had to write "Black, White, Black, White", I don't remember that he advises to actually mutter these words to yourself, but somehow it happens to a lot of people. When even more verbal "thinking" enters, like "when it works I am ahead", "hah an overplay, i punish him", "this is a ladder breaker, but what happens when he answers here, does it still break the ladder" it is too easy to lose the image altogether.

I imagine that professionals may have a problem in even recognizing this problem, because they probably never played like this. It is somehow like talking in a foreign language while preparing the sentence in your native tongue, it is just so much extra effort for your poor brain (handling two things at once) and the result will never convince.

The other question this raises is: can there be too much verbalizing - e.g. with Malkovich games, game reviews. (Maybe some of us talk too much about their games, so we start commenting during the game to ourselves instead of playing it.)

Polama · Post by **Polama** » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:00 am

I've noticed my visualizations getting 'lighter' as my reading has improved. To start, I'd make an effort to imagine a white stone, then a black stone, pausing after each to sort of mentally draw it onto the board. I'd put mental effort into giving the stone 'permanence', remembering where I'd played it explicitly. This may work for the visually-minded, but I'd quickly get bogged down just trying to hold all this visual information in my mind.

Now, when I'm reading well, I just give the slightest hint to an intersection as I put a stone down. I don't make a conscious effort to hold the imaginary stones in place. Counter-intuitively, I'm more accurate with these ghost stones. When I invariably do lose details at the start of reading, I just restart, paying attention to whatever detail mattered here. Having read the sequence once, the second time is faster and smoother.

I suspect reading is a fairly individual process, but for me, my instinct was to improve reading by imagining more vivid stones on the board and being more forceful about keeping them in memory, but I've actually improved by reducing them to the smallest information I can and avoiding conscious intrusion into 'helping' keep the stones in memory.

hyperpape · Post by **hyperpape** » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:09 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X O . . . . $$ | . . X O . . . . . $$ | . . X O . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Status? $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . $$ | . . . . . X . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

If you really want to give yourself a lot to chew on, start with one of these positions.

Edit: Accidentally included part of an old post I copied the diagrams from.

konfuzed · Post by **konfuzed** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:08 pm

I cannot visualize moves at all; I have to think through things as a sequence and try to check it by asking "would there be a stone there? how about there? Would there be any liberty problems?" and retrace my steps when I am trying to read, which is time-consuming, difficult, and unreliable. I have the same issue with anything involving visual memory. I wonder how much poor visualization skills can improve, or how strong one can get without visualizing stones? I am just a weak SDK.

Polama · Post by **Polama** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:39 am

When there's a direction to reading, e.g., you're trying to escape stones to a particular area, you can sometimes summarize sections of your reading and then forget the details. You might read out how to maximize your liberties in the opposite direction you're escaping: you're not necessarily going to play that now, but if you count out that you can find 4 liberties at the bottom, you can keep just that number in mind as you read out the escape. Because your focus is moving one way, the specific end formation in the other direction isn't likely to have an immediate bearing.

Or if you read that along the path to escape you'll reduce an important enemy group to two liberties, it's sometimes easier to just mentally mark the last two liberties as forcing. Or if you can capture enemy stones, but you need 5 liberties to achieve it, continue reading with just a focus on maintaining a count of liberties.

It's very cool when it works: you've read to the limits of your ability, just getting a harried group into an open area. Then you realize that having gotten here, the various tesuji and skirmishes don't have much bearing in this region, and you clean most of the details other than the stones put down around this new area, and start reading all over. It's no harder than the first chapter of reading, but you're already 15 moves out, and now you're adding another 10, far deeper than you've ever read before.

Just be careful if the fight starts to bend back towards areas you've cleared from memory.

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:57 pm

konfuzed wrote:I cannot visualize moves at all; I have to think through things as a sequence and try to check it by asking "would there be a stone there? how about there? Would there be any liberty problems?" and retrace my steps when I am trying to read, which is time-consuming, difficult, and unreliable. I have the same issue with anything involving visual memory. I wonder how much poor visualization skills can improve, or how strong one can get without visualizing stones? I am just a weak SDK.

If you can think of a room of your house that you're not currently in and remember what colors the walls are and how many pieces of furniture are in it, then the problem is not visualization. ;-)

In the same fashion, you simply picture an extra stone on the board. Then another new stone of the opposite color. If you can do just that, you'll be on your way to 'reading'. Once this becomes a competent skill, start counting the liberties of your imaginary stones (and any real stones that may be in contact with them) and keep this as a habit. There was a point when I didn't bother counting my liberties, and then weird and terrible things happened to my stones.

It takes more work for some, but as long as you work at it, you'll get there.

Now think of a zebra with the head of a crocodile. Have I convinced you yet?

konfuzed · Post by **konfuzed** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:23 pm

I put my response in a hide tag because it's probably not terribly interesting. Summary: I can remember some visual things but not well enough to hold or manipulate an accurate image of a game of go. I can remember where a stone is, but I cannot see it unless it is there.

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:15 pm

konfuzed wrote:

Well it's certainly a start! And you have to be good at some aspects of visualization, otherwise how would you navigate to the grocery store and back?

If you read a little bit before our posts on the thread SoDesuNe talks about Kageyama's book "Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go". In that book he sets up the following diagram:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Ladder Exercise. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X O X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 1 O X , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The idea is to read the ladder out from :b1:

to see if it works.

Since the sequence, as Kageyama points out, is unbranched, the point of the exercise is to instill the correct attitude and good habits in reading (you're supposed to read it out patiently, stone by stone). The other benefit is to work on the visualizing aspect of reading without bogging yourself down with variations.

Kageyama says when you've read it out stone by stone, read it again and become comfortable with ladders. Once you're sure of your answer, rearrange the stones in the bottom-left however you want and read it again. The result is the confidence to read out any ladder almost instantly, at any time.

Another very real benefit for weaker players like you and I, though, is practice in visualizing the stones.

Life In 19x19

How do you 'see' and retain stone positions while reading

Re: How do you 'see' and retain stone positions while readin

Re: How do you 'see' and retain stone positions while readin

Re: How do you 'see' and retain stone positions while readin

Re: How do you 'see' and retain stone positions while readin

Re: How do you 'see' and retain stone positions while readin

Re: How do you 'see' and retain stone positions while readin

Re: How do you 'see' and retain stone positions while readin

Re: How do you 'see' and retain stone positions while readin

Re: How do you 'see' and retain stone positions while readin

Re: How do you 'see' and retain stone positions while readin

Re: How do you 'see' and retain stone positions while readin

Re: How do you 'see' and retain stone positions while readin

Re: How do you 'see' and retain stone positions while readin

Re: How do you 'see' and retain stone positions while readin

Re: How do you 'see' and retain stone positions while readin