#186 - topazg vs. skydyr

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skydyr
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Re: #186 - topazg vs. skydyr

Post by skydyr »

That 24 was unexpected. I think white wants black to answer locally to protect the side group so that white will then have secured the corner from that side in sente, and he will be able to remove the aji of F3 and get a huge corner.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20 Prisoners: none
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X 1 3 . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
The marked stone has a lot of aji, but I don't know if I want to exploit it yet.

Here are some things I am thinking of...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: none
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . 3 . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This gets black a nice big point.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: none
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X M . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I also want to play this 1 at some point, aiming at the invasion at 3, which also breaks white's ladder. It also stabilizes black's corner enclosure by making the probe at the marked point less useful, and provides moyo potential with a one-space jump to P13.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: none
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O M . . 1 . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Coming out here is also interesting. Is it better to do this immediately, or to wait and play it later? Black can also peep at white's marked connection.

I am not worried about white cutting into black's left side position, because black can extend to the top at any time, or solidify if white approaches from the top.

I will think on this.
Last edited by skydyr on Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

skydyr wrote:That 24 was unexpected. I think white wants black to answer locally ...
For beginners. skydyr does not seem to understand the meaning of :w24:, a basic shape -- see Topazg's Post #30 hidden comment.
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

skydyr,
skydyr wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O M . . 1 . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Black can also peep at white's marked connection.
Could you elaborate a bit more about the peep you mentioned -- could you show a variation or two?
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skydyr
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Re: #186 - topazg vs. skydyr

Post by skydyr »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25 Prisoners: none
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
for edlee,
Peep's not exactly the right word for what I had in mind. Maybe threat to peep or remove an eye would be better?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: none
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . B . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 1 . . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Specifically, I was looking at the two points there, though the marked black stone (the one space jump) seems a lot more handy.

observers only
I think I can take the time to make this, and double approach if white starts to kill aji in the bottom left. I don't think white can take care of all the aji in one move, since black can run, play under the pincer, or try to take the corner from that stone.

for topazg
I threw in a hide tag for you so it doesn't feel lonely. :) This move took a bit because I wanted to sleep on it. Hopefully you're enjoying the game.
Last edited by skydyr on Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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topazg
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Re: #186 - topazg vs. skydyr

Post by topazg »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25 Prisoners: none
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 2 . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Not much to say, just taking it quietly for now. I can invade on the left a bit more firmly if I spend the time to not have too many weaknesses of my own for him to counter-attack.
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

skydyr wrote:Peep's not exactly the right word for what I had in mind. Maybe threat to peep or remove an eye would be better?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . B . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 1 . . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
Specifically, I was looking at the two points there, though the marked black stone (the one space jump) seems a lot more handy.
I'm not sure B would have the time to any of that:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . 1 . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 3 2 . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
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skydyr
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Re: #186 - topazg vs. skydyr

Post by skydyr »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25 Prisoners: none
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 2 . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
White played the high move with the intention of putting pressure on black's side group and keeping it low, I think.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: none
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
If black plays like this, does white need to respond in the corner, or is it gote for black?

I can see something like this...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm25 Prisoners: none
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 3 . . . 5 . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . 8 . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 1 . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This leaves black with maybe 24 fairly solid points on the left, maybe another 24 top right, with potential for a lot more, and potential for another 24-30 bottom right. White has 5-10 points for the top group, 16 pretty solid points for the right, and another 30ish bottom left. This gives us 75-80 for black, and maybe 50-55 for white, without any big fights breaking out. So, white would need to then ruin black's bottom right or make 30 more points than black in the centre, and the F3 stone still has aji. I think I can play this way. I have a feeling White can't though.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25 Prisoners: none
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 4 . 1 . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Maybe something like this will happen?
Last edited by skydyr on Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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hyperpape
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Re: #186 - topazg vs. skydyr

Post by hyperpape »

I feel as if the horse's head is a case of wishful thinking by Black. It accomplishes very little for White while helping Black to fix a weakness of his.
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

( Ninja'd by hyperpape :)).
For beginners.
skydyr wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
skydyr's :w2:- :b3: exchange above helps B -- thank-you move for B -- so topazg would not play it.
Instead, maybe W will simply reply with :w2: and wait for the chance to invade if B does not fix his weakness there --
this invasion-attack is severe because all the B stones on the left are unsettled:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :b3: tenuki
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 2 . 1 . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
And if B fixes with :b3:, then :w4: goes after :bc: with the goal of reducing the (a) areas:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 2 . 1 . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . . X . a . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
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topazg
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Re: #186 - topazg vs. skydyr

Post by topazg »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25 Prisoners: none
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 2 . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Ok, that's a fairly big point, but I played high to start a fight, so I guess it's as good a time as any. Because Black didn't fix the cutting point at C7 I hope to create enough issues down the left hand side that Black has to concede something somewhere. Let's see what happens.
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skydyr
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Re: #186 - topazg vs. skydyr

Post by skydyr »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25 Prisoners: none
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 2 . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
So white is starting a fight, which should not be unexpected because I didn't see a good result for white otherwise. I feel it's a bit early for this particular move, though. There are 4 groups directly involved:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: none
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . M X . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Groups 2 and 3 are relatively strong in this fight. Group 2 still has an invasion under the 4-4 stone to contend with at some point, and group 3 has aji at the marked point. Groups 1 and 4 are a single stone each, so they're quite weak but can also be treated lightly to get a good result somewhere else.

I think my ideal plan for this fight is to lean with group 3 onto group 4 to build strength and make that group alive. This will help with the coming fight when I move the F3 stone out by preventing white from threatening this group. My second goal is to preserve the aji under the 3-3 point so that I can invade there later.

Here are some thoughts:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: none
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , 7 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Normally, the purpose of 1 is to sacrifice the stone to connect under, giving white a ponnuki on the outside. It's a bit of a desperation move to stay connected, or something to play when white already has a lot of influence nearby, so that more doesn't help. Pulling back with 5 is a horrible horrible move you should never play, because white gets strong and captures half the group. In this case, however, black can treat that stone lightly, because it is secondary to the main extension down the side, and because by sacrificing it, white hasn't yet secured anything.

I've hidden the followups below in the interests of space. I don't intend to play them immediately, because black can be forced into gote, and there is bigger stuff on the board.

The other question is what to do if white hanes on the other side:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: none
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 2 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
part 2
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Followup
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B 9 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 1 3 4 . . . . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . 5 2 O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Followup variant 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 1 3 4 9 . . . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . 5 2 O 0 O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Followup variant 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 9 . 7 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . B 1 2 . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . 0 3 O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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topazg
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Re: #186 - topazg vs. skydyr

Post by topazg »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25 Prisoners: none
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 2 . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Assuming he's going to cut, this looks like the best way to attack the central left side which is my primary target:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm29 Prisoners: none
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 4 8 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
If he doesn't cut, he just has more broken shape. I think I can be happy with the following result:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm29 Prisoners: none
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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skydyr
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Re: #186 - topazg vs. skydyr

Post by skydyr »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25 Prisoners: none
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 2 . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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topazg
Tengen
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Re: #186 - topazg vs. skydyr

Post by topazg »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25 Prisoners: none
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I'll gladly take that. Black appears to have suffered somewhat in that exchange simply due to cutting off C14 so solidly.
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skydyr
Oza
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Re: #186 - topazg vs. skydyr

Post by skydyr »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Prisoners: none
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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