Etiquette: When to pass? (i.e. how long to play on)

[ivanzypher]

Hi guys & gals,

I've won my last 4 games and I feel pretty good about that. Just thought that I'd throw that in there I've only played 7 rated games on KGS (& a few non-rated) but feel myself improving and making more solid moves with each game.

So I was wondering, the last game was pretty tough, they played at lightning speed (it was 30 mins each then 30x5 byoyomi but they had like, 26 mins on the clock at the end) and they ended up losing by a fair margin. But I felt like it was a pretty close game, well, kind of, "they're good enough for the game to become close again if I make one dumb move, and some of my groups look a bit dubious", you get the feeling.

Anyway, so I was getting close to passing, it was late endgame, I knew that I had won, and they (recklessly) started to invade my larger groups, now I knew they couldn't live there, it was way too small, and they knew they couldn't live there, either - but nevertheless, they played on. Now, I didn't mind, but I was pretty tired after thinking hard for an hour (late evening), and I just desperately wanted them to pass.

So, my question is, how far would you take it? What do you feel about trying to invade at late endgame in a group where you are almost certainly going to be killed? And, are there any rules about it? Of course, in theory, one could play again and again, ignoring the other person's passes, and the game could go on and on?

[mlund]

So, my question is, how far would you take it? What do you feel about trying to invade at late endgame in a group where you are almost certainly going to be killed? And, are there any rules about it? Of course, in theory, one could play again and again, ignoring the other person's passes, and the game could go on and on?

If there's no aji left and your opponent would have to basically pass multiple times for you to make life then it's time to pass or resign. That said, when a position can still be threatened with a cut or seki you shouldn't write it off. If nothing else you could be looking at an extended series of ko threats to win some small or moderate points in the yose. Also, if the sequence is hard to read and your opponent hasn't managed his time well that's the trade-off he or she brought on themselves. Time management in a timed game is part of go.

But just trying to induce a blunder that's beneath my opponent's displayed level of skill makes me feel disrespectful. I shouldn't be mentally or emotionally in a place where I'm so angry about losing or desperate for victory. The worst part about it is if I win I won't want to review the game - and it's a game I probably really ought to be learning from.

- Marty Lund

[TheBigH]

It's frustrating and boring, I agree. But treat it as an opportunity to improve. It will help your concentration and give you more practice in killing eye-shape and effectively using outside influence.

[hyperpape]

For beginners, you should make the play so long as you cannot see that it fails. One way of seeing that it fails is to have a thorough reading that shows that you die. But even if you can't read it perfectly, it may seem impossible.

If you cannot tell what should happen, go ahead and invade.

As for your opponents, many may not follow that rule, but at your level, it may also be that either one of you is missing something. So try not to fret about it.

[xed_over]

What etiquette? Pass when you believe the game is over. If you miscalculate, then you risk losing.

[Coyote]

You really have to be careful. Sometimes your opponent sees weakness that you don't, and sometimes they can take profit from a failed invasion. I was behind in this game so I played move 178. It didn't work but instead of abandoning it I kept reading it to see if I could do anything with it. I read that I could make some forcing moves that would create a capture race which I would lose but would give me 3 free moves elsewhere while my opponent played stones inside his own territory. I was hoping to get at least 5-6 points out of me which probably wasn't enough. Unfortunately for my opponent he made a mistake.


So, read carefully when an opponent plays a silly invasion and try to play moves that fix multiple problems in your shape so you can finish the game quicker. Be careful passing or playing a low-value tenuki.

http://www.dragongoserver.net/sgf.php?gid=764409

[hyperpape]

What you're describing is semedori, coyote, and it's a fairly subtle endgame play, but a good one! http://senseis.xmp.net/?Semedori

[Uberdude]

If you are playing Robert Jasiek, do not pass until you have read the rules very carefully