Deep Zen vs. Three Japanese Pros in 9X9

logan · Post by **logan** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:03 am

schawipp wrote:
Splatted wrote:1+4. Ichiriki Ryo 2p
2+5.Ohashi Hirofumi 5p
3+6.So Yokoku 8p

Thanks for the information. In the first game, I do not really understand why white (Zen?) resigned. If after Black-33 white plays e. g. on J3 the LR corner should be simply dead, and 34. G7 - G8 doesn't seem to work for B. In result, W looks rather big. Obviously I am missing something crucial... ? Thank you for any explanations.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm33 BP:3 WP:0 $$ ------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . Q . . 5 . . | $$ | . . X X Q Q , . . | $$ | . . . . X Q 1 3 . | $$ | . . . . X X O O O | $$ | . . X X . O X X O | $$ | . . O X . O O X 2 | $$ | . . . . O . X 4 X | $$ | . . . . . . X X X | $$ -------------------[/go]

Black wins capture race.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm34 BP:3 WP:0 $$ ------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O O 1 3 . | $$ | . . . . X O X 2 7 | $$ | . . . . X X O O O | $$ | . . X X . O X X O | $$ | . . O X 8 O O X 9 | $$ | . . . 4 O 0 Y . Y | $$ | . . . 6 5 . Y Y Y | $$ -------------------[/go]

Black saves his bottom stones. Is ahead in points.

schawipp · Post by **schawipp** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:32 am

logan wrote:
$$Bm33 BP:3 WP:0
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . Q . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . X X Q Q , . . |
$$ | . . . . X Q 1 3 . |
$$ | . . . . X X O O O |
$$ | . . X X . O X X O |
$$ | . . O X . O O X 2 |
$$ | . . . . O . X 4 X |
$$ | . . . . . . X X X |
$$ -------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm33 BP:3 WP:0 $$ ------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . Q . . 5 . . | $$ | . . X X Q Q , . . | $$ | . . . . X Q 1 3 . | $$ | . . . . X X O O O | $$ | . . X X . O X X O | $$ | . . O X . O O X 2 | $$ | . . . . O . X 4 X | $$ | . . . . . . X X X | $$ -------------------[/go]

Black wins capture race.
...

Thanks, that's really interesting (for me at least

). That B wins the capturing race, was not obvious for me. I thought of some variations as the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm38 BP:3 WP:0 $$ ------------------- $$ | . . . . . . 8 7 . | $$ | . . 4 O 3 . X 5 6 | $$ | . . X X O O 1 2 . | $$ | . . . . X O X X 9 | $$ | . . . . X X O O O | $$ | . . X X . O . . O | $$ | . . O X . O O . O | $$ | . . . . O . X O X | $$ | . . . . . . X X X | $$ -------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm47 BP:3 WP:0 $$ ------------------- $$ | . . . . . . X 3 1 | $$ | . . X O O . X 2 X | $$ | . . X X O O O X 4 | $$ | . . . . X O X X O | $$ | . . . . X X O O O | $$ | . . X X . O . . O | $$ | . . O X . O O . O | $$ | . . . . O . X O X | $$ | . . . . . . X X X | $$ -------------------[/go]

And after the squeeze the B stones have only 2 liberties against 3 liberties left. Thinking against about it, a better way is obviously the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm38 BP:3 WP:0 $$ ------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O 3 . X 4 . | $$ | . . X X O O 1 2 . | $$ | . . . . X O X X . | $$ | . . . . X X O O O | $$ | . . X X . O . . O | $$ | . . O X . O O . O | $$ | . . . . O . X O X | $$ | . . . . . . X X X | $$ -------------------[/go]

Here the B stones have 6 vs. 4 liberties which should be easy. Are there other possibilities than black-41? Thank you in advance for correction of any flaws (I am starting to get serious doubts about my reading capabilities... :scratch:

).

Edit: If in my first diagram, B plays 43 at 44, this seems also a possible solution.

(I am starting to get serious doubts about my reading capabilities... )

No further comments on that ;-)

Mike Novack · Post by **Mike Novack** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:36 am

ez4u wrote:
gowan wrote:What sort of machine was Zen running on? It makes a difference in how strongly these programs play.

From the user information of 'Zen19D' on KGS, by its author, Hideki Katoh:
"Zen19D is a version of Zen19, runs on a mini-cluster of 4 PCs (a dual 6-core Xeon X5680/4.4 GHz, a 6-core i7 3930K/4.2 GHz, a 6-core Xeon W3680/4 GHz and a 4-core i7 920/3.4 GHz) connected via a GbE LAN. .......

No, Gowan's question remains unanswered until we confirm that the hardware Zen19D usually runs on was the hardware available for this trial.

Rémi · Post by **Rémi** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:37 am

You can find more information in the computer-go mailing list:
http://dvandva.org/pipermail/computer-g ... 05544.html
http://www.asahi.com/igo/topics/TKY201211270576.html

Rémi

luigi · Post by **luigi** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:43 pm

Rémi wrote:You can find more information in the computer-go mailing list:
http://dvandva.org/pipermail/computer-g ... 05544.html
http://www.asahi.com/igo/topics/TKY201211270576.html

Rémi

From the first link:

Zen had chances to draw in some games in Black but selected much
risky (actually losing) moves. I guess this caused by implementing
draws by adding a third value, 0.5, to UCB. To play a draw
move, all better looking moves (by prior) have to be refused, or proved
worse than 0.5. This could take pretty long time in some positions.
#Faking komi to 6.5 might help but a better solution possible?

I guess this explains why Zen performed worse than expected. After all, computers have already beaten pros on 9x9 before.

ez4u · Post by **ez4u** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:32 am

Mike Novack wrote:
ez4u wrote:
gowan wrote:What sort of machine was Zen running on? It makes a difference in how strongly these programs play.

From the user information of 'Zen19D' on KGS, by its author, Hideki Katoh:
"Zen19D is a version of Zen19, runs on a mini-cluster of 4 PCs (a dual 6-core Xeon X5680/4.4 GHz, a 6-core i7 3930K/4.2 GHz, a 6-core Xeon W3680/4 GHz and a 4-core i7 920/3.4 GHz) connected via a GbE LAN. .......

No, Gowan's question remains unanswered until we confirm that the hardware Zen19D usually runs on was the hardware available for this trial.

If you look at the earlier post I linked to, you will see that Katoh uses the same hardware setup for these competitions as he does no KGS. If you really want to confirm it again, just email him.

oren · Post by **oren** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:43 pm

Ohashi posted in his blog a little about the event.

http://blog.goo.ne.jp/minamijyuujisei_1 ... 037?fm=rss

John Fairbairn · Post by **John Fairbairn** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:45 pm

Since it's short, I thought I would dash off a translation of the article mentioned by oren.

Good morning. On Sunday 25th I played some 9x9 games against Zen.

There were three of us, So Yokoku 8-dan, Ichiriki Ryo 2-dan (the Nakano U18 Cup holder) and myself, and we played six games - two games each, with Black and White.

The games themselves were close affairs but luck was on our side and we won all six games.

Since we thought that taking Black with 7 points komi was horrendous, we expected to win by something like 4-2.

Ichiriki's first game offered some clues, and so I played the second game on the basis of certain inferences, having been able to grasp some of the computer's proclivities.

In the lunch break the three of us had a strategy conference. It looks like it paid off this time.

Humans versus computers 9x9 research is currently being run as a series in Go World as a "9x9 science" corner, and that research helped, too.

You can see the game records here. This article goes into more detail.

Once it was decided to play a match against the computer, various voices were raised and so there was a little pressure, but now we can relax.

That was a brief interlude. Tomorrow I have a real game. The 19x9 board sure looks big now...

I have omitted the links, but the second one is worth pursuing if you are keen on this topic. It's on the Asahi site and gives some specific details of the inferences, the pro strategy and the luck mentioned in the blog above.

The next match is scheduled for March.

headless · Post by **headless** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:53 am

That's a nice translation.
But I know that Ohashi is just the author of "9x9 science".

Life In 19x19

Deep Zen vs. Three Japanese Pros in 9X9

Re: Deep Zen vs. Three Japanese Pros in 9X9

Re: Deep Zen vs. Three Japanese Pros in 9X9

Re: Deep Zen vs. Three Japanese Pros in 9X9

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Re: Deep Zen vs. Three Japanese Pros in 9X9

Re: Deep Zen vs. Three Japanese Pros in 9X9

Re: Deep Zen vs. Three Japanese Pros in 9X9

Re: Deep Zen vs. Three Japanese Pros in 9X9

Re: Deep Zen vs. Three Japanese Pros in 9X9