A position in the "Mini-Chinese Denied"

Tami · Post by **Tami** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:36 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Mini-Chinese Denied $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White has just played a pincer to deny Black the Mini-Chinese.

I wonder how best to meet Black`s idea of jumping out twice. I know the exchange of 3 for 4 is not good, but this is what my opponents tend to do, which is why I include it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Mini-Chinese Denied $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . c . . , X . . | $$ | . . 4 . . X . . . . . . . b a . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I tried approaching at a, but I got into trouble in one game after the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Mini-Chinese Denied - Double Jump $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . 9 . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . 7 . . , X . . | $$ | . . 4 . . X . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

(1 and 2 reused)

The reason I tried 6 was because I thought I was being "light where the opponent is strong" but it seems 7 was perfect. Could it be that, in fact, Black is not yet strong? Black`s group is reaching high, but it does not yet have a base, so perhaps it would be better to play more tightly near it in the hope of attacking it later?

So, what do you think of playing 6 like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Mini-Chinese Denied -Double Jump $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . 4 . . X . . . . . . . 6 . 7 . . . | $$ | . . b 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

And what about a? Is Black`s idea of playing there dangerous? Is b too passive, even though the idea is to aim at c in the long run?

Thanks a lot!

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:15 pm

In your third diagram, perhaps pressing instead of jumping uses your K4 stone more obviously.

My first feeling is that I like your fourth diagram. If you feel

is slow, what about not playing

?

It may be worth considering that playing an extremely distant, high pincer infers some loss in the corner.

golem7 · Post by **golem7** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:43 am

Hi Tami. In the third diagram, I wouldn't really call

light play, since playing lightly has the aim of not being attacked severely

This just seems to be extending too far. I also like the fourth diagram better. However,

is a little slow. Although it makes a nice position concerning the right side, it allows black to take the initiative on the left, which is more urgent right now. How about

here or at d,e?:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Mini-Chinese Denied -Double Jump $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . e 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . c . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . W . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . 4 . . X a b . . . . . 6 . 7 . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The

-

exchange is already a plus for white. The shape formed by

and the marked stone is very resilient against attacks. White has a and b to take away blacks eyeshape while making some of his own and can regard this area and jumping at c as miai. This is good for white in my eyes.
However, white also has to consider black ignoring

to play d, since

is not very forceful and black has to make use of

somehow.

On a side note: What I like to do nowadays (after seeing it in pro play, of course

), is making an enclosure at

or a when white pincers. Takes profit early and makes any fighting on the bottom much easier. So have a counter plan ready!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Mini-Chinese Denied - enclosure accepted $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . a 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:19 am

Since I'm a proud owner of GoGoD now, I can't help but start that in all the games in the GoGoD-database, there are only seven where White pincers this far and high. Three games were played by amateurs and overall this move was played in the 80s. And Black won 57.1% of these games.

Secondly, Pros or Amateurs have not once jumped out of this position. Taking the corner and re-approaching are the common moves.

So, hmm, how should White proceed... My first guess was this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc :b2: Black pincers $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 4 3 . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . W . . X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Looks crude but puts a lot more pressure on Black and cleary makes the marked exchange bad, I think. I can't even be sure, where Black should pincer here. White has played high, it's easy to make shape or advance in the center keeping Black split.

quantumf · Post by **quantumf** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:50 am

golem7 wrote: On a side note: What I like to do nowadays (after seeing it in pro play, of course ), is making an enclosure at or a when white pincers. Takes profit early and makes any fighting on the bottom much easier. So have a counter plan ready!

$$c Mini-Chinese Denied - enclosure accepted
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . a 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Mini-Chinese Denied - enclosure accepted $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . a 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Yep, me too. Also, ladders are in black's favour.

Tami · Post by **Tami** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:04 pm

Firstly, thanks for offering your thoughts on the situation. It`s appreciated.

I`m sure my initial idea of extending all the way to P3 was wrong - basically an overplay. The one-space high pincer in reply is severe.

In the line with the enclosure, my first impulse would be to kick the Black stone.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Mini-Chinese Denied - Enclosure and Kick $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 3 . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . 2 X . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

However, if Black replies as expected, I`m not convinced this fight is particularly favourable to White.

is strong and if Black runs to a, then White`s pincer may come under pressure. I`d like to know how the pro games in the enclosure variation went, but I don`t have a database.

Therefore, perhaps it would be better to pincer one space further to the left. The only drawback I see is that Black could deploy the Catenaccio joseki. It`s not that it`s good, but I just don`t like the kind of go it creates.

Boidhre · Post by **Boidhre** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:08 pm

Tami wrote:The only drawback I see is that Black could deploy the Catenaccio joseki. It`s not that it`s good, but I just don`t like the kind of go it creates.

Could you elabourate on that? I'm similar and I'm curious as to your reasons. Sorry the question is off-topic.

daal · Post by **daal** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:47 pm

Tami wrote:
$$c Mini-Chinese Denied - Enclosure and Kick
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . 4 . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . 3 . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 X . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Mini-Chinese Denied - Enclosure and Kick $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 3 . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . 2 X . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
However, if Black replies as expected, I`m not convinced this fight is particularly favourable to White. is strong and if Black runs to a, then White`s pincer may come under pressure. I`d like to know how the pro games in the enclosure variation went, but I don`t have a database.

The above position appears once in my database, but with a different move order:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Mini-Chinese Denied - Enclosure and Kick 2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 5 . . . 6 . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . 4 1 . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Here was the settling continuation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Mini-Chinese Denied - Enclosure and Kick 2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . 1 . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . 5 3 4 . 2 . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:43 am

Tami wrote:I`d like to know how the pro games in the enclosure variation went, but I don`t have a database.

(the normal Shimari) in this whole-board context not once occured in my GoGoD database. If you dismiss the top Hoshis (meaning: you dismiss being in this opening stage) and just look at the position (Black Shimari on the bottom right, White Hoshi on the bottom left, Black approach move at the bottom left Hoshi and White Hoshi in the bottom middle) we have two games: One with Cho Chikun and one with Takemiya Masaki. Both played White and both won the game.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Takemiya Masaki (W) vs Kiyonari Tetsuya (B) $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . O . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 2 . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . 1 B . 4 . . . . . 7 X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 9 0 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Cho Chikun (W) vs Kato Atsushi (B) $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 2 . 4 . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . 1 B . . 8 6 7 . 5 . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Both times Black played the marked move after White extended to the bottom middle Hoshi and the Shimari was already in place.

If you want your concrete opening example:

has to be either a Ogeima Shimari or a two-space-expansion. Then there are two games as well.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Chen Guoxing (W) vs Zhou Junxun (B), B+R $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . 9 . . . 6 . . . . . , 3 . . | $$ | . . . . 8 5 . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Chen Guoxing (W) vs Zhou Junxun (B), B+R $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 3 . . . 7 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 9 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

And

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Kataoka Satoshi (W) vs Shiraishi Yutaka (B); W+1.5 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . 9 . . . 6 . . . 7 . , 3 . . | $$ | . . . . 8 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Kataoka Satoshi (W) vs Shiraishi Yutaka (B); W+1.5 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . 6 . . 9 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 5 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . 1 . O . . . X . , X . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Tami · Post by **Tami** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:36 am

Thanks a lot, SoDesuNe, for your trouble. While it`s complicated, it certainly seems that the kick is a viable move, and that White should not be doing badly from the fighting starting from the bottom.

Boidhre wrote:
Tami wrote:The only drawback I see is that Black could deploy the Catenaccio joseki. It`s not that it`s good, but I just don`t like the kind of go it creates.
Could you elabourate on that? I'm similar and I'm curious as to your reasons. Sorry the question is off-topic.

No problem. The Catenaccio joseki is not terribly good, because it is very low, but it does frustrate attempts to build a moyo. So the reason I dislike it is subjective - it is a negative plan rather than a creative one. It typifies the kind of thinking common at my current level - "how can I destroy?" I don`t claim that it can`t be effective, only that such styles are not to my taste.

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:10 am

Tami wrote:Thanks a lot, SoDesuNe, for your trouble. While it`s complicated, it certainly seems that the kick is a viable move, and that White should not be doing badly from the fighting starting from the bottom.

You're welcome!
Still I would offer a different perspective:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . a . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . b . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This position was reached 2416 times according to GoGoD. But White 'a' was only played seven times as a response. And out of this seven games, three were played by amateurs.
Overall, no pro played this move since 1996. The last time (according to GoGoD of course) was the game between Chen Guoxing and Zhou Junxun (both were 4p then) from above.

I conclude from this that 'a' has to be inferior in some ways - at least on pro level.

It is true that the nuances might be unimportant on our level but why try to make it work when there are other moves like 'b', which accomplish the same (denying the mini-chinese) but were played 605 times as a response?

Tami · Post by **Tami** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:47 am

SoDesuNe wrote:It is true that the nuances might be unimportant on our level but why try to make it work when there are other moves like 'b', which accomplish the same (denying the mini-chinese) but were played 605 times as a response?

While I am not afraid of it, I would like an alternative because I don`t enjoy the joseki that is used when Black jumps out in response to b. Still, there must be good objective reasons why the pros prefer the tighter pincers in this situation.

This is one of the things that makes go so interesting - the attempt to find a balance between reasoning and taste. The best move may not always suit your personal taste, and your favoured move may not always be very good.

emeraldemon · Post by **emeraldemon** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:52 pm

If you find yourself with a taste for bad moves, perhaps it's time to find a different taste.

golem7 · Post by **golem7** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:54 pm

As to why the far high pincer is not played very often: My guess would be that it's just not severe enough and has no clear follow-up except a fight with uncertain outcome. Thus, it leaves black a bit of a free hand while pros like to play forceful. With a tight pincer, you can seal black in next, if he doesn't respond.
The following variation seems to be quite common nowadays:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b , . . . . . , . . . . . , 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . a . . . , e . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . 2 . d c . . . 3 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If white plays

directly at a, black will play at b, making a comfortable position on the left while still being able to live easily with

. In the above diagram the game development will depend on who gets to play first on the lower side (white wants c, black d or maybe e).

@ tami: You don't like this one? Or with

at a, for example?:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 5 , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . 2 . . a . . . . c . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If black presses white down and to the right like this, he's hurting his own corner while giving secure territory to white. And without a stone in the b area it's doubtful that blacks influence will be useful. If blacks stone in the lower right were at c, things would be a bit different since black could seal white in completely. But I still think that a stone at b should already be there if black wants to play this way. You should just try it out in a few games. Perhaps you can learn to appreciate this variation for white. There is a reason why this joseki is hardly played by black anymore (I only see it when the influence works especially well with the rest of the board).

Life In 19x19

A position in the "Mini-Chinese Denied"

A position in the "Mini-Chinese Denied"

Re: A position in the "Mini-Chinese Denied"

Re: A position in the "Mini-Chinese Denied"

Re: A position in the "Mini-Chinese Denied"

Re: A position in the "Mini-Chinese Denied"

Re: A position in the "Mini-Chinese Denied"

Re: A position in the "Mini-Chinese Denied"

Re: A position in the "Mini-Chinese Denied"

Re: A position in the "Mini-Chinese Denied"

Re: A position in the "Mini-Chinese Denied"

Re: A position in the "Mini-Chinese Denied"

Re: A position in the "Mini-Chinese Denied"

Re: A position in the "Mini-Chinese Denied"

Re: A position in the "Mini-Chinese Denied"