#185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:28 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm12 $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

With holiday travels and other stresses, my brain is not good (obvious from my two in-person games yesterday :sad:

.)
Also, from skimming Ishida and Takao, I found out I know practically nothing about the LR variations. :geek:

So more studying of the books is not very helpful now.

For beginners. I don't understand B's choice of :b11:

-- maybe I'll find out his reasons after the game --
because if we just compare the left, the top, and the right, the right side is the "shortest".
Of course, this is not to say that gap size is the only factor, but it is one consideration.
This also does not mean that :b11:

is not playable; especially at these levels, it's most likely no problem at all.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm12 $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ {AR C14 C15} $$ {LN C14 C5} $$ {AR C5 C4} $$ {AR F17 E17} $$ {LN F17 O17} $$ {AR O17 P17} $$ {AR R14 R15} $$ {LN R14 R9} $$ {AR R9 R8}[/go]

I'm not sure what's the best pincer. Not sure about the 2-space low pincer:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

The Intrepid · Post by **The Intrepid** » Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:41 am

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:13 am

@TheIntrepid:

The Intrepid · Post by **The Intrepid** » Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:25 am

@topazg

Edit:

The Intrepid · Post by **The Intrepid** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:45 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm12 $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:59 am

The Intrepid · Post by **The Intrepid** » Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:07 pm

Ed, I'll be traveling or otherwise preoccupied during the next ten days or so. Therefore, don't feel pressured to make a move any time soon. It's unlikely I'd be able to reply for a while, anyway.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:12 pm

Thanks... yes, holiday season....

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:51 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm14 $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 1 . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

The Intrepid · Post by **The Intrepid** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 2:44 am

I'm still not home, but I'll be returning in a few days. Thus, I should be able to make a move by Tuesday or Wednesday.

I know that I still have not posted comments regarding my previous move. I'll get to it soon. I'll just note that EdLee had a wide choice of moves available to him. However, interestingly enough, when professionals defended the corner, they overwhelmingly preferred the following to EdLee's move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . a . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . |[/go]

I don't quite yet understand why, but it probably has to do with corner aji. I believe my current choice mainly consists of "b" and "c," with my previous analysis suggesting that I should play "b."

Also, I should add that, upon a more detailed analysis, the move I chose might be sub-optimal, given that White has influence on the bottom right. Thus, in retrospect, perhaps one of the moves the pros preferred in such positions, such as "d" or "e," would have been objectively stronger. That said, I think everything is still under control.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . e . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Anyway, full commentary on the last move will be posted in a few days.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 3:45 am

Take your time.

I'm not home, either, and won't be for a few more months! :-|

The Intrepid · Post by **The Intrepid** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:41 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm15 $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:56 pm

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:36 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm16 $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

The Intrepid · Post by **The Intrepid** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:15 pm

Comments regarding :b13:

:

I had a wide array of moves to choose from. The general idea is to reduce White's potential on the right side of the board and, at the same time, gain points where they are easier to get--the top or the top-right corner. To this effect, professionals preferred "a" or "b," usually playing "a" and then "b" in conjunction. Lee Chang-ho played "a" then "c."

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . f . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . c b . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . d O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O e . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

It was also possible to tenuki, leaving the Black stone at the top-right alone for the time being. The best places to tenuki would be "d"--which expands the bottom moyo and fights for influence in the center--and "e" which would take a large corner and threaten to reduce White's moyo on the right from underneath the White stones. In addition to all the above options, Lee Sedol played "f" in one game, taking the corner right away. The exact situation on the board was this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . W . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O B B . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Black already has the bottom-right corner which could be an important factor why Lee Sedol might have thought it was all right to take the top-right corner in exchange for additional White influence toward the right side.

As to the move in the game, the knight's jump is a relatively new move. Out of the 40 games in the database I could find, 30 of them happened in the last 10 years. Let's compare and contrast this move with similar moves:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc (A) The move in the present game. $$ --------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ , . . . . . O . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . 1 . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . O . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc (B) A move popular about 80 years ago, no longer considered joseki. $$ --------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . O . . . | $$ , . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . 1 . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . O . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc (C) A common joseki, with "a" or "b" next for White $$ --------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . a . . . . . | $$ , . . . b . O . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . 1 . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . O . . |[/go]

The problem with (B) is that the marked stone is on the 3rd line, leaving Black insufficient room to do anything substantial against the corner. As a result, either Black gets insufficient territory in the corner to offset White's gains (after White "a") or else Black's influence turns out to be insufficient to offset White's territory in the corner and on the top (after White "b"):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc (B) $$ --------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . W . . . | $$ , . . . b . , . . . | $$ . . . . . . a X . . | $$ . . . . . X . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . O . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Therefore, (A) is better than (B) because White's corner stone is at 4-4 instead of 3-4.

As for the (A) vs. (C), the two moves are similar in many ways. In both cases, Black separates White's two stones, seeking to apply pressure against one or the other. As for the differences:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc (C) $$ --------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ , . . . O . O . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . a W . . | $$ . . . . . . B . . . |[/go]

Black's first two stones cannot be easily disconnected. These two stones apply greater pressure against the corner than toward :wc:

.

is not connected very well to the original two stones, however, enabling White to play "a" in various situations.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc (A) $$ --------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . O . . . . . | $$ , . . . . . O . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . X . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . W . . | $$ . . . . . . X . . . |[/go]

By contrast, here all the three Black stones work well together and apply more pressure toward :wc:

. However, the original two stones are apply less force against the corner and aren't as well connected with one another.

I cannot really offer too much insight beyond this, however. I never played (A) before. Similarly, my knowledge about (C) is limited, given that I either invade the corner or approach the corner from the other side when faced with a close-low pincer. That said, as I was familiarizing myself with (A) and (C), I came to realize that these josekis are best when Black has a stone in the bottom-right corner (and absent White stones there). For example, Black cannot complain about the following result (So Yokoku vs. O Meien (b), 2004):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm20 $$ ----------------- $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . O . . . . . | $$ . . . . O . . . | $$ . . . . . O . . | $$ . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . X . . . . | $$ . . . . . O . . | $$ . . . . X 7 . . | $$ . . . . , 9 . . | $$ . . . . 8 3 . . | $$ . . . . 4 . . . | $$ . . . 2 . 1 . . | $$ . . . . . . 5 . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X . 6 . | $$ . . . X . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------[/go]

Life In 19x19

#185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords

Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords

Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords

Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords

Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords

Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords

Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords

Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords

Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords