39. Magicwand (3d) vs. Kirby (1d)

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Harleqin
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Re: 39. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 4

Post by Harleqin »

Not for players!
Magicwand wrote: Below is what I expect from Kirby:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . 5 . . 4 . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . W . . 1 . . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Yeah, and it is what I expect from Magicwand...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . X . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . X . . X 3 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
It is good for Black, I think, provided Black remembers where he put his axe.
A good system naturally covers all corner cases without further effort.
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Re: 39. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 4

Post by Marcus »

I think comments from each player have a ton of merit for us mid-SDK players and below to learn from. I'm a fan of both, and as long as the two are willing, I want to see the series continue.

On that note, for kibitzers:
I'm pretty sure Kirby will win this. Magicwand will either get close, but fall short, or get punished heavily as Kirby begins to see the refutations for Magicwand's overplays. I'm not sure which.
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Re: 39. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 4

Post by Bill Spight »

I have a foot in both camps. I want Kirby to win, and I think that Kirby will win if he plays up to himself. :) At the same time, I am a fan of Magicwand. :)
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Re: 39. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 4

Post by Aphelion »

Marcus:
One thing I know is that this game will not be close. Magicwand will go for all or nothing, and if it doesn't work he will be left with a bunch of stones in the center w/o a moyo or attack going, or if Kirby doesn't refute his overplays very well he will collapse suddenly.
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Re: 39. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 4

Post by Chew Terr »

Magicwand:
Thank you, that diagram makes a lot of sense. I never feel like I know how to handle situations like that as black or white. In a big handicap game, white always tries to attack both corners on one side, to start to build shape. It seems important and relevant to see this sort of expected continuation, to know how things SHOULD turn out, even if both players end up choosing something different. Kind of a handicap joseki, almost, if less refined.

I know people give you a hard time about not commenting and such, but part of that is the fault of the observers, since few people ask questions. So I'll try to ask more. If black plays the three-space extension instead of the two-space, for :b1:, will you immediately jump inside to fight? Also, is the three-space extension for black actually bad here, or just more fight-oriented?
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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Re: 39. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 4

Post by Kirby »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . B . . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Well, there are certainly a lot of comments. Thank you to everyone that has commented.

First, to everybody, I am sorry that I have portrayed a negative attitude as I have. Magicwand reminded me yesterday that the point of these games is for learning. I don't like losing, so this has been a bit of a wild experience for me. But I will do my best to remember that the point of these games is learning... I'm really sorry for the negative attitude that I have portrayed. I will do my best not to do this anymore.

I'm sure that the situation will get complicated at some point, but instead of whining or being negative like I have been, I will try to look past my weakness and find the best move.

With that said, there is nothing to do now except to play my best. I will try to play every move with a lot of thought, consideration, and to the best of my ability - regardless of the handicap I've gotten myself into.

---

So back to the game! If I was playing a fast game on the Internet, I would play the two-space extension that I have without thinking. It has at least two purposes:

1.) It makes a base for my stone.
2.) It pincers the white stone at the same time.

But I should consider what happens if I choose an alternative. So what alternatives could there be?

The following points come to mind as possibilities:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . W . e . . . X . O c . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
or I could ignore the bottom and tenuki at a place like the top middle star point.

So let's consider each move.

a - If I play at "a", I put some pressure on the two white stones. However, it is fairly easy for white to profit from attacking me in return:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . W . . 4 . . B . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
:w4:, above, is a key point for both of the marked stones. Whichever plays it first gets a base and has a lot of safety. So with option "a", while I put some sort of pressure on the two stones white has on the right, I set up my own pincer stone for being pressured. Perhaps it's possible to play this way, but the key point for both white and black making a base - the move I chose in the game - feels like a much safer way to go. I still have time to pressure either white side at a later point.

b - If I defend territory passively, white can again easily attack my stone:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . 2 . . B . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Pressure is put on the marked stone, above, once again. Black doesn't have a base, and white does with his two stones on the left.

While I can get some territory, I don't think that this is the way to go at all.

c - This kind of move just weakens my pincer stone. I played something similar in the last two games, and especially in the last one, it was like just throwing my pincer stone away. In one of the comments Magicwand left, I noticed that he said that it was better to not play the pincer at all... So, that choice is out.

d - This kind of move grabs territory, but just like c, I am allowing for my pincer stone to be weak once again.

e - This move seems too wide. A tighter pincer is the same as the chosen pincer in that it doesn't allow white to get a base - which is my primary objective here. But it leaves myself open to being invaded later very easily. It seems more efficient to simply play one stone to pincer and make a base simultaneously. That's why I prefer the move in the game to "e".
be immersed
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Re: 39. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 4

Post by Kirby »

Magicwand wrote:
Kerby: to boost your confidence.. our correct handycap is 2 stone. then we should be even (that is if you dont play me for money). ...
We will see. Let's just play, now.
be immersed
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Re: 39. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 4

Post by Magicwand »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . W . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . X . . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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Re: 39. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 4

Post by Violence »

I told myself that if Kirby lost at 3, I'd just have to play a game with Magicwand myself.

So Magicwand, do you want to play a game?
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Re: 39. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 4

Post by Magicwand »

Violence wrote:I told myself that if Kirby lost at 3, I'd just have to play a game with Magicwand myself.

So Magicwand, do you want to play a game?
how do you want to play? even? black? 2 stone?
let me know.
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The greater the unknown"
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Re: 39. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 4

Post by Kirby »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . X . . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I thought about this move for a long time before deciding on it. I definitely wanted to help my bottom left stone because, if white played in the same spot as I am on this turn, it would be very good for him: even if I live, I would be sealed in. Getting sealed in, in go, is very bad. So I considered the following spots:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a c . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . X . . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
a - My rationale behind "a" is that it helps me to get territory more easily on the bottom left. When compared to "c", this move is safer for me against an attack by white at the spot above "b". The reason I don't like it that much is that I am only thinking of defending. I put very little pressure on white since I am only thinking about points. I thought about points too much last game. Also, white can still slide in under the marked stone, so the amount of territory I get is not great, even.

b - I also considered this move. Since white's slide under is better for me:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . B . . O . . X . . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
so white might be inclined to invade the 3-3... But I don't think that is good for white here.

I almost played this move... But, just as with "a", "b" lacks vigor in that it thinks of only one thing: securing corner territory. It puts a lot less pressure on white than "c" does.



Therefore, I chose "c". I cannot be meek, and I must pressure white. I am reminded of a preview I saw at the movies the other day for some KungFu Kid remake with Jackie Chan.

Jacki Chan says something like, "the only way to stop them is to face them"... It's cheesy, but I think the only way I can stop Magicwand is if I face him boldly...

And that means putting more pressure on his stone with "c", in this case.
be immersed
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Re: 39. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 4

Post by Magicwand »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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Zwergesel
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Re: 39. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 4

Post by Zwergesel »

For magicwand:
Magicwand wrote:
topazg wrote:
Magicwand wrote:wow..Kerby fan club is pretty big :)
do i have anybody on my side???
Everyone loves the underdog ;)
with 4 stone?? I AM THE UNDERDOG!! :D
I agree!! Kirby will probably win this game, because 4 stones is a lot, but I'm rooting for you, because I like the way you play: based a lot on intuition and the complete confidence in your ability to outfight your opponent :D This game will be tough, but you do have a chance, so good luck!

By the way, I'm really looking forward to your game against Violence, because as far as I've heard, he's a pretty strong fighter too, who likes to make things complicated. Am I right?
For Kirby:
Good luck with this game! Just remember not to let yourself get pushed around and don't rely on your handicap stones to do all the work for you and I'm pretty sure it won't be hard for you to win! And please punish magicwand's overplays, because as much as I like to see him get away with it, I'm also curious to learn how they can be punished ;)
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Re: 39. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 4

Post by Magicwand »

Zwergesel wrote: By the way, I'm really looking forward to your game against Violence, because as far as I've heard, he's a pretty strong fighter too, who likes to make things complicated. Am I right?
i am very confident on that game. i feel that he is one level weaker than i am so i dont worry.
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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Re: 39. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 4

Post by Violence »

Magicwand wrote:
Zwergesel wrote: By the way, I'm really looking forward to your game against Violence, because as far as I've heard, he's a pretty strong fighter too, who likes to make things complicated. Am I right?
i am very confident on that game. i feel that he is one level weaker than i am so i dont worry.
I'll just have to play two levels better than normal then, won't I?
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