Is efficiency sente?

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John Fairbairn
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Re: Is efficiency sente?

Post by John Fairbairn »

Robert:

Maybe your motivation of discussing these two phrases is related to my use of 'factual' in the sense of German 'sachlich'.


I'd say it would be rather rare to translate 'sachlich' as 'factual'. 'Pertinent' or 'objective' or even topazq's 'valid' spring to mind first, although I would accept 'factual explanation' for 'Sacherklaerung'. Perhaps we'd most often want 'tatsaechlich' for what we mean by 'factual', though I admit English speakers also often use 'factual' to mean 'according to my opinion'.

You feel the integrity and relevance of your work are under "attack". I can't here or in other threads see how you can justify that factually for the most part. My sense is that it is simply the presentation that grates. Obviously even on, say, relevance some people may have an opinion that differs from yours (for example, I think your work is not likely to be relevant to human teaching but could be highly relevant to computer programming), but since when is holding a different opinion on the same set of observations an attack? What is an attack (to use your word) is to assert repeatedly, without adding new information, that the approach, knowledge or preferences that other go players have are vague, ambiguous, worthless, cowardly, etc etc while also maintaining that one's own path of alleged logic is infallible. The majority of readers here have invested a lot of time and money in cultivating a common interface by which they can discuss things - they have bought and read the same books, shared the same experiences, and so on. On L19 they simply want to sit sociably at the party table enjoying their trifle and other goodies. They don't want one guest to be trying to nail his jelly to the ceiling above them, to filch a phrase from my sage GoGoD colleague, T Mark Hall. Jelly nailing is fine if you do it in the privacy of your own room. Asking you to do that is not an attack on your jelly, nor on you. It is simply an observation that there is a time and place for everything.

In short, it is about presentation. And lo and behold, I see a post presented so that we can all relate to it and enjoy it and empathise with it. It begins, "Concerning the existence of efficiency as a strategic concept". If this form of presentation can be kept up, I wholeheartedly welcome the newcomer to the party table.

Taking my cue from that, and so becoming willing to have a discussion, I offer the following thoughts relating to the line "proper moves [whether they are efficient or too slow]", and of course to the main topic of this thread. I quote below from a chapter on egosim in the excellent book The Seven Deadly Chess Sins. Author GM Jonathan Rowson is making the point that players tend to see positions only from their own point of view and want to satisfy only their own urges. As part of this he discusses "Populist Prophylaxis". I give a long quote, but I think that if you mentally substitute honte (proper move) for prophylaxis as you read this, there are superb insights here for go players - not necessarily new information, but just seeing the topic of honte from a different angle may bring it all into better focus for you.

POPULIST PROPHYLAXIS
The greatest skill in chess lies in not allowing the opponent to show you what he can do. GM GARRY KASPAROV

Prophylaxis. It's an awkward word that I can never remember how to spell and I feel pretentious every time I say it. Many players think of it as something profound that Nimzowitsch conjured up but nobody fully understands, and I suspect most club players consider it an entirely foreign concept, not applicable to the hussle and bussle [spellings sic! JF] of your average game. Watson (Secrets of Modern Chess Strategy) does an excellent job of surveying recent thinking on the matter, including the instructive writings of Dvoretsky and Yusupov (Positional Play and Training for the Tournament Player) and Tisdall (Improve Your Chess Now) but in all of these cases I have the impression that many readers must find the whole idea of prophylaxis a bit perplexing, occurring only in exceptional circumstances and something which only happens over 2600 level.

This is certainly my experience when teaching the idea to junior and adult players. There is an inclination to admire prophylaxis from a distance, as if it were something to be revered as a part of chess culture, but not incorporated into chess below a certain level. This is sad because it's really not such a regal or exclusive area, and I believe it can and should be used and understood by players of all strengths. [....] Once you start to look at positions with an awareness of your opponent's perspective, you are already thinking prophylactically to an extent. Indeed, as far as I can tell, prophylactic thinking needn't be considered as anything more than a state of mind whereby you are aware of your own plans and how they relate to your opponent's. [....]

Through a long and somewaht alcoholic grapevine in Holland I heard that GM Artur Yusupov, who had recently been coaching in Apeldoorn, had proclaimed that "If you understand prophylaxis, you understand chess". A few months after hearing this I found myself climbing up a more sober grapevine and on reaching the top I was pleased to have the opportunity to speak to the man himself. I asked if this quotation was an accurate reflection of what he had said and, not surprisingly, was told by Yusupov that he did not make such an extravagant claim. However, he did say that although the given statement is an over-simplification, it is not very far from the truth and that a close study of top players and their thinking processes reveals that prophylaxis is never far from the minds of the strongest players. Yusupov singled out Kasparov in this respect, whom he referred to as "deeply prophylactic" [....]

Yusupov was also keen to stress that prophylaxis should not be seen as in any way defensive or passive, but rather as a very active, even aggressive way of looking at chess. This was a particularly interesting insight because another aspect of the average player's thoughts on prophylaxis is that it tends to lead to highly profound but usually quite defensive moves, and of course this may not appeal to your average 1800 hacker. The truth, however, is that prophylaxis is every bit as important in attack as it is in defence.


If I may, I will add yet another insight of my own from chess which relates to "speed of extensions and connections [move type]". As is well known, the pawn structure determines almost all chess strategy. But if you change 'pawn structure' into 'moyo' and transfer the strategic thinking to go, you can understand go in a new light. First it has to be undertood that moyo is simply a framework for a territory. It does not have to be big, nor does it belong only in Takemiya's games. Every mapping out of a potential territory in every game is a moyo. Therefore, every go game has a moyo structure in just the same way that every chess game has a pawn structure. Masters are those who are familiar with many such structures. Second, in the west, for reasons of historical accident, we have been taught only about big moyos and only how to deal with erasing them or invading them. We have not been taught the primary Japanese concepts, which apply to all moyos large or small, of kamae (construction) and kakoi (surrounding). My suggestion therefore is that you start to look on moyos in a new light, and learn how to build them large and SMALL, and then how to surround them, but in such a way that you begin to observe the patterns that come up in every single game, not just Takemiya's.
RobertJasiek
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Re: Is efficiency sente?

Post by RobertJasiek »

John Fairbairn wrote:[...attack...]I can't here or in other threads see how you can justify that factually for the most part.[...]


Indeed, and I have not referred to the most part. (Can we end meta-discussion now?)

The majority of readers here have invested a lot of time and money in cultivating a common interface by which they can discuss things


Every two players' knowledge of terminology and go theory varies so much that I would not speak of a common interface. New developments of go theory require adaption of a player's "input interface", if he wants to profit from the new.

- they have bought and read the same books,


That was so until the mid 90s. Afterwards, there have been so many books that different players have read pretty different sets of books.

shared the same experiences,


Certainly not. E.g., some players live in cities with go clubs while other players live in the countryside without access to real world go clubs.

If this form of presentation can be kept up,


Not everybody follows your preferred form of presentation, and especially not all the time.

moyo is simply a framework for a territory. It does not have to be big, nor does it belong only in Takemiya's games. Every mapping out of a potential territory in every game is a moyo.


It is a funny incident that I have just recently come to the same conclusion while writing a positional judgement book. It is so much more consistent and suitable for evaluation tools to speak of moyos regardless of their size, place and shape.

Every mapping out of a potential territory in every game is a moyo. Therefore, every go game has a moyo structure [...] Second, in the west, for reasons of historical accident, we have been taught only about big moyos and only how to deal with erasing them or invading them. [...] My suggestion therefore is that you start to look on moyos in a new light, and learn how to build them large and SMALL, and then how to surround them, but in such a way that you begin to observe the patterns that come up in every single game


Yes, and soon I will be contributing to overcome a too restricted view.
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Re: Is efficiency sente?

Post by hyperpape »

SmoothOper wrote:I have been trying to grasp the theory behind Lee Changho's style. From what I can glean from the internet thus far, is that he preferred solid thick but efficient openings and relied on late mid-game and yose moves, and is generally uninterested in moyos, sente plays(with the exception of pure profit moves), running groups and or attacking groups.

I guess I am wondering how you would recognize this style of play, and what would happen if two Buddhas were to play each other. Is efficiency sente?
I have never actually understood what this question was asking, which I think helped to contribute to the thread going off topic.
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Re: Is efficiency sente?

Post by SmoothOper »

hyperpape wrote:
SmoothOper wrote:I have been trying to grasp the theory behind Lee Changho's style. From what I can glean from the internet thus far, is that he preferred solid thick but efficient openings and relied on late mid-game and yose moves, and is generally uninterested in moyos, sente plays(with the exception of pure profit moves), running groups and or attacking groups.

I guess I am wondering how you would recognize this style of play, and what would happen if two Buddhas were to play each other. Is efficiency sente?
I have never actually understood what this question was asking, which I think helped to contribute to the thread going off topic.


I am not interested in playing like Lee Changho, I have chosen to idolize other players, but I expect he will have a popular style to imitate, so how would one recognize imitations, and what is the basic theory behind the strategy. I gather that it is Yose heavy. People describe his play as "calm", well calm doesn't seem all that great of a strategy, calm is the absence of fight, but what do you get by foregoing fighting... efficiency?
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Re: Is efficiency sente?

Post by hyperpape »

That's more clear, I think, though I can't say I can comment on Lee's way of play very much. Many people recommend Yuan Zhou's books on professional players, and he has one on Lee.

But my sense is that while Lee was an amazing player, few of the current generation of Korean players follow his lead.

Also, note the way I say "way of play", not just strategy. I think much of what separates Lee's play was not "high-concept" strategy, but specific tactical choices and style in particular cases--when do you play tenuki, when do you reinforce, etc. That's why I think your approach to strategy in the other thread is off base.
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Re: Is efficiency sente?

Post by lemmata »

hyperpape wrote:But my sense is that while Lee was an amazing player, few of the current generation of Korean players follow his lead.
I am much too weak to understand Lee Changho's style. However, I think that you kind of hit the nail on the head here. Lee Sedol seems to think that many of his fellow pros don't really understand what the true strength of Lee Changho was/is. When it comes to players that strong, perhaps it takes one to know one.

Lee Changho was also celebrated for his timely and astute use of probing/asking moves. That particular aspect of his game may be viewed as reflecting a "miai style" of sorts, but, again, I am much too weak to say that with any degree of confidence.
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oren
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Re: Is efficiency sente?

Post by oren »

Lee Sedol's commented games vol 2 has two games with Lee Changho heavily commented, so you may get some ideas when that book is released.
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Re: Is efficiency sente?

Post by SmoothOper »

These games are interesting, but Lee's attempt at a moyo was laughable.

http://haengma.net/kuksu/return-of-the-king/
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Re: Is efficiency sente?

Post by xed_over »

Joaz Banbeck wrote:[admin]
This thread is going way off topic, and on several occasions has verged on breaking the TOS prohibition against personal attacks.
[/admin]


then maybe you shouldn't post so many pictures of rocks in various orientations, which I would interpret as a personal attack.
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Re: Is efficiency sente?

Post by xed_over »

RobertJasiek wrote:
John Fairbairn wrote:If you just repeat like a mantra everything must have a precise definition, you are really doing no more than saying "come into my world, come into my world, come in to my world", and anyone who enters has to play with your rules and your ball.


1) The world of precise definitions, principles etc. is not just my world but is the world of sciences, mathematics and other fields.

2) Go is a special case of mathematics and therefore profits from precise definitions, principles etc.


I disagree. I think Go is equally, if not more, about art and creativity which can be quite imprecise. As such, it probably benefits from fuzzy, imprecise definitions.
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Re: Is efficiency sente?

Post by hyperpape »

RobertJasiek wrote:
hyperpape wrote:the proof will be whether or not he produces definitions that expand our understanding of the game. We can't judge it beforehand.


Judge about my findings so far! They greatly expand go theory understanding.
Yes, that's what I'd ideally do. The comment was about my current understanding of your results, without having read your books.
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Re: Is efficiency sente?

Post by RobertJasiek »

hyperpape wrote:The comment was about my current understanding of your results, without having read your books.


You can read those results freely available such as those on my webpage, in rec.games.go archives or at Sensei's. You can read the small fraction of book definitions available also at Sensei's (but be aware that there are sometimes only intermediate results, not always the complete results; this is so for 'thickness'). If you want to understand my books' results, then the best way is too obvious to tell you. The second best way is much less useful because you will necessarily miss a lot of essential information (E.g., how could you guess my 14 principles for playing elsewhere in josekis?). Obviously, I won't read the books for you, but if you think to have understood something and to miss just a few last hints, then you can ask and see if I answer or if I need to protect my commercial or time management interest.
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Re: Is efficiency sente?

Post by RobertJasiek »

xed_over wrote:I think Go is equally, if not more, about art and creativity


Why then do you disagree? That Go can be perceived also by art and creativity does not make the maths aspect invalid.

it probably benefits from fuzzy, imprecise definitions.


Can you show us how to learn well from such?
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Re: Is efficiency sente?

Post by lovelove »

RobertJasiek wrote:
hyperpape wrote:The comment was about my current understanding of your results, without having read your books.


You can read those results freely available such as those on my webpage, in rec.games.go archives or at Sensei's. You can read the small fraction of book definitions available also at Sensei's (but be aware that there are sometimes only intermediate results, not always the complete results; this is so for 'thickness'). If you want to understand my books' results, then the best way is too obvious to tell you. The second best way is much less useful because you will necessarily miss a lot of essential information (E.g., how could you guess my 14 principles for playing elsewhere in josekis?). Obviously, I won't read the books for you, but if you think to have understood something and to miss just a few last hints, then you can ask and see if I answer or if I need to protect my commercial or time management interest.

Seems you know many things about go. Then what makes the difference of strength in playing go, between you and hundreds of players stronger than you?
Amsterdam, soon.
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Re: Is efficiency sente?

Post by RobertJasiek »

lovelove wrote:Then what makes the difference of strength in playing go, between you and hundreds of players stronger than you?


The question is answered elsewhere in this forum, and I think several times. (I do not recall where. Very condensed summary: I think (in comparison to stronger players) relatively slowly when it comes to unfamiliar reading (such as complicated local L&D) and choice of endgame moves due to their relative sizes) In addition:

The time I have invested in research I have invested less in strength improvement. Result: I can produce many research results while those stronger can win much more often.

EDIT:

"Slow" thinking has been an advantage for maths university study and go theory research because slow thinking allows (me) careful thinking more easily. Slow and careful thinking is a disadvantage for fast reading / endgame value calculations also because I want to be (too) careful while thinking. I rather verify each step thrice before continuing to the next reading or calculation.
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