#185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords

skydyr · Post by **skydyr** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:14 am

The Intrepid · Post by **The Intrepid** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:35 am

It's a good thing you are simultaneously playing another game, for I sure am taking my sweet time on making my moves.

I don't think I properly said what I was trying to achieve with the fuseki I've chosen. The idea was that, after :b7:

, I would have an extension from the wall I'd be building, while White wouldn't.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Black already has an extension (marked stone) while White doesn't. $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . B . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

The problem is that I almost certainly end up in gote, allowing EdLee to protect his moyo, as well. As I looked through the possibilities, I was not sure what I would do in this position, for example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc How to deal with White's moyo? $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Even though this position should be playable for Black, I was concerned that White would be building territory on at least as large a scale, if not larger, as Black would.

Thus, I decided to try to be clever about it by trying to get a stable living group on the right side before going about building my territory on the bottom. However, I then decided to be adventurous and played a knight's jump after a pincer without fully investigating the possible consequences. The problem now is that if I try building my territory on the bottom straight away, my group on the right will likely become weak. See for yourselves:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc White to move; marked stones make Black's group on the right noticeably weaker. $$ --------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ , . . . O . O . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . X . . . . | $$ . . . . . . X O . . | $$ . . . . . . X O . . | $$ , . . . . . X O . . | $$ . . . . . . . O . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . W W . O . . . | $$ . . X X X O . . . . | $$ . . . . . X O . . . | $$ . . . . . X , . . . | $$ . . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------[/go]

Professionals seem to have a lot of faith in the resilience of Black's structure, allowing similar situations in a few games, but I am no pro.

Therefore, I find myself in a tricky situation that is hard to handle. Well, it serves me right for playing things I am completely unfamiliar with.

Then again, I am learning things big time.

As far as how to reinforce my group, I mentioned the following possibility, but it fails after the indicated sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ----------------- $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . O . O 3 . . | $$ . . . 2 1 5 . . | $$ . . . 6 4 X . . | $$ . . . X . . . . | $$ . . . . X O . . | $$ . . . . X O . . | $$ . . . . X O . . | $$ . . . . . O . . | $$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Black group gets cut, leaving Black with a heavy floating group in the middle. Perhaps I am underestimating Black's chances in the coming fight, but I'd rather steer clear from such an outcome.

The possibility I am investigating presently is the following, where I am still unsure whether to exchange "a" for "b" first or not (in fact, I am not sure, yet, whether White has to answer at "b" or whether White can be clever and play something like "c" instead):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . 3 . . 1 . 2 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O b O c . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . d . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

seeks to break up White's position on top. :b5:

aims to stabilize the group there, but White might not need to reply at :w6:

, which is a big concern. Then, I hope (read "pray") that I could get away with playing :b7:

(and the sequence that follows) without needing to play at "d" first.

Another possibility I am looking closely at is playing at one of the points around "d" right away.

The proper way to proceed still seems very elusive to me at the moment. Good times! :-D

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:14 am

3, total.

I recently took about 30 days to make a move, because I had missed a trigger and thought it was not my turn! :oops:

TIM82 · Post by **TIM82** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:31 am

EdLee wrote:3, total. I recently took about 30 days to make a move, because I had missed a trigger and thought it was not my turn!

Just as you remember that it's your turn in our game

Seriously though, no hurry at all, I'm enjoying thinking about the possibilities there.

The Intrepid · Post by **The Intrepid** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:03 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm21 $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

I have a big hematoma from bashing my head against the wall over the past few days. It hurts like hell and it didn't help me choose a move. It's terrible, really.

My top three candidates where these:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc (A) Jump $$ --------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ , . . . O . O . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . X . . | $$ . . 1 . . X . . . . | $$ . . . . . . X O . . | $$ . . . . . . X O . . | $$ , . . . . . X O . . | $$ . . . . . . . O . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc (B) Eye $$ --------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ , . . . O 2 O . . . | $$ . . . . . 1 . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . X . 3 . . | $$ . . . . . . X O . . | $$ . . . . . . X O . . | $$ , . . . . . X O . . | $$ . . . . . . . O . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc (C) Fight $$ --------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ , . . . O . O 1 . . | $$ . . . . . . 2 3 . . | $$ . . . . . . 4 X . . | $$ . . . . . X . . . . | $$ . . . . . . X O . . | $$ . . . . . . X O . . | $$ , . . . . . X O . . | $$ . . . . . . . O . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

If the stone in the top-left corner were Black, I would have gone for this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 . 1 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . B . . . . . , 4 . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

In the actual game position, I am not confident that such a move would be good, given how reduced the aji at "a" is because of where the marked Black stone was placed:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 b 1 . . a . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

This way of playing might be okay (perhaps especially so if :b1:

were played at "b" instead), but I am not sure about this.

As for the above three possibilities, choice (A)--the jump into the center--is a good move. I am pretty sure that an alternate me in a parallel universe played this move.

Choice (B) is not bad either, but it represents a loss locally as compared to the usual joseki:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . c . . . . | $$ , . . . O . O . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . B . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ . . . . . . X O . . | $$ . . . . . . X O . . | $$ , . . . . . X O . . | $$ . . . . . . . O . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Black can still hope to exploit the aji at "c," whereas choice (B) does not have this option. That said, perhaps accepting a small loss locally (even if this means admitting to having played sub-optimally earlier on) would not be such a terrible thing to do in the current position. My alternate self doubtlessly played this move, also.

As for choice (C)--the move in the game--attaching at 3-4 could very well be a terrible overplay. The course of the game might show that. Truth be told, when I played the knight's jump on move 13, I thought that I was going to follow up with exactly this 3-4 attachment. I thought White then has to play as follows:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc (B) Eye $$ --------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ , . . . O 4 O 1 . . | $$ . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ . . . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . X . . . . | $$ . . . . . . X O . . | $$ . . . . . . X O . . | $$ , . . . . . X O . . | $$ . . . . . . . O . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Unfortunately, White has the option of playing :w2:

at

, cutting my group in two. However, I've convinced myself that the fight is not all that terrible, The four Black stones in the middle ought to be able to survive. In the worst case, I'll play lightly with these stones, hoping to gain profit elsewhere in return. That said, I might end up kicking myself for playing :b21:

.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:04 pm

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:41 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm22 $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

The Intrepid · Post by **The Intrepid** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:29 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm23 $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

EdLee decided not to cut my group. Perhaps the move in the game is better. However, if that's the case, then White has already misplayed the opening somewhere. My understanding of the position might be wrong but I do believe Black to be ahead at this point in the game.

If EdLee separated my group, I was intending to play this (although I would obviously think some more about :b8:

and

before playing them):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a 6 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 7 . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . | $$ | . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 8 . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

In this diagram, Black is ahead on territory--especially so since White still needs to play at "a" to secure his territory on top. White's compensation is that Black has an unsettled group in the middle. However, that group is hard to kill. Thus, I believe Black is preferable in this diagram. I guess EdLee reached the same conclusion.

Yet, I'm not sure that the position which will be reached in the game is any better for White. I expect the following sequence (although I will still need to think some more about :b3:

--the move has some very good alternatives, such as "b" and "c"):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . b . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O 2 O X c . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Incidentally, I believe that giving attari with :w2:

would be a mistake:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm2 $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O 2 O C 1 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm6 $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 X O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O X O 1 O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm10 $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O C O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . 2 O X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

The ladder works for Black and White has no good ladder breakers--the fact that the bottom-left-corner stone is at 3-3 (rather than at some other point) is ideal. For example, Black would have nothing to fear from the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm12 $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X C X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . 1 2 . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Thus, Black would get an excellent result because his group would now be impervious to attack and White's top side would be ruined. In fact, Black would stand to gain territory there. Moreover, Black influence would be rather terrifying. EdLee won't go for this.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:32 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm24 $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

The Intrepid · Post by **The Intrepid** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:40 am

The Intrepid · Post by **The Intrepid** » Sat Dec 22, 2012 1:24 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm25 $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

EdLee played his last move at Q17 to reduce aji in the corner at the expense of aji along the side whereas WP16 would do the opposite. It does not seem to me that the difference between the two moves is particularly big. The move in the game might be better in terms of endgame.

I am rather confident that I can tenuki right now. My group on the right is strong enough. I expect the following sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 6 O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 7 3 1 O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Next, White can consider playing at "a." Otherwise, Black can play there at some point, and Black group on the right would become completely safe. If White does play at "a," then a running battle may ensue. I don't believe I have too much to be afraid of in that fight.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sat Dec 22, 2012 1:43 am

For beginners. Locally, blocking with :w1:

is natural, and up to :b4:

is pretty much guaranteed for W;
the question is whether I want this result, or if I can do better:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 B O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:24 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm26 $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

The Intrepid · Post by **The Intrepid** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:54 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm27 $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

The Intrepid · Post by **The Intrepid** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:24 am

Comments regarding moves :w26:

and

.

After

, White could not tenuki. The following would be unacceptable for White:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

After

Black has two moves to choose from. The first one aims to fight with White over influence, obtaining a higher wall at the expense of leaving unpleasant aji in the position. The joseki would normally proceed like this, where White can next play "a" (which ends in gote) or "b" (which ends in sente).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . a b . . . . . | $$ . . 5 4 . . . . . | $$ . . 1 O . O . . . | $$ . c 2 X O . . . . | $$ . . . 3 X O . . . | $$ . . . . X , . . . | $$ . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ ------------------[/go]

Note that Black still has to play at "c" to (temporarily) neutralize the lone White stone. That lone stone retains much aji, however.

Here are two examples that demonstrate the aji. First, White can take the corner because the following fails for Black:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc is a mistake $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . O . , . . . | $$ . . O . . . . . . | $$ . . X O . . . . . | $$ . . X O . O . . . | $$ . X O X O . . . . | $$ . . . X X O . . . | $$ . . . . X . 2 . . | $$ . . . . . X 1 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ ------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . O . , . . . | $$ . . O . . . . . . | $$ . . X O . . . . . | $$ . . X O . O . . . | $$ . X O X O 5 . . . | $$ . . 9 X X O 4 . . | $$ . . . . X 3 X . . | $$ . . . . 7 X O 6 . | $$ . . . . . . 8 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ ------------------[/go]

Another example is from Seo Bong Soo vs. Lee Changho(b), 1992:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm57 $$ . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . X X . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . O X . . . . . | $$ . . . . . O X . X . . . | $$ . . . . O X O X . . . . | $$ . . . . . 3 O O X . . . | $$ . 2 1 . . . . O , X . . | $$ . O . . . . . . O X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm57 $$ . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . X X . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . O X . . . . . | $$ . . . . . O X . X . . . | $$ . . . . O X O X . . . . | $$ . . 0 6 5 X O O X . . . | $$ . O X 9 7 4 . O , X . . | $$ . O . . 8 . . . O X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm67 $$ . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . X X . . . . . . | $$ . . . . 5 O X . . . . . | $$ . . . . 3 O X . X . . . | $$ . . . 1 O X O X . . . . | $$ . . O O X X O O X . . . | $$ . O X X X O . O , X . . | $$ . O 4 2 O . . . O X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ------------------------[/go]

The other choice Black has after :w26:

is the move in the game. This move gives Black a lower wall but substantially less aji to worry about. For example, if White tried to take the corner now as in the previous variation, Black could cut:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc is a mistake $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . O O . O . . . | $$ . X X X O 5 . . . | $$ . . . . X O 4 . . | $$ . . . . X 3 2 . . | $$ . . . . f X 1 6 . | $$ . . . . . . g . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ ------------------[/go]

Now, the cut at "f" is not dangerous for Black. If White plays at "g" instead, Black would respond at "f" and White stones would get captured.

After :b27:

, professionals either tenuki-ed or continued at "d."

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . d O . O . . . | $$ . . X X O . . . . | $$ . . . . X O . . . | $$ . . . . X , . . . | $$ . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ ------------------[/go]

Afterward, White usually played on the left to reduce Black's moyo. However, in the present game, Black already has an extension from his wall.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . d O . O . . . | $$ . . . . e X X O . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . X O . . . | $$ . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ . B . . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ------------------------[/go]

As a result, if White exchanges "d" for "e," Black gets secure 6th-line territory.

At the same time, letting Black turn at "d" seems even worse because it is sente. Black's influence would be too threatening after this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ------------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ . . . . . 5 . . . O . . | $$ . . . . . . 3 . . . . . | $$ . . . . . 1 O 4 O . . . | $$ . . . . . X X O . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . X O . . . | $$ . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ------------------------[/go]

Hence, EdLee is in a tricky position. Does he continue to push my stones--solidifying my position and giving me 6th-line territory but gaining strength against the unsettled Black group above--or does he leave the situation as is in hopes of invading or reducing Black moyo later on. Personally, I don't think White can allow Black to turn here. Thus, I would exchange "d" for "e" and then either attacked the unsettled Black group on the right or (more likely) took a big point on the left side of the board.

As a parenthetical remark, I should like to say that, having taken a look at relevant pro games, I came to the conclusion that Black's moyo on the bottom is not as secure as I previously thought. As such, my earlier statements of being already ahead might have been unwarranted. Ultimately, all I can really say is that the position is very difficult to handle properly from either side. Right now EdLee has a very though decision to make. Let's see what plan he comes up with.

Edit:

I forgot to say that, out of the two basic josekis discussed above, only the one played in the game is viable in the situation on the board. With Black having an unsettled group above, it is ill advised to push White's strong group in that direction.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc White can now use sente to attack the marked Black group $$ ------------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ . . , . . . O . O B . . | $$ . . . . . . . . B . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . B . . | $$ . . . . . . . B . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . B O . . | $$ . . . . . . . . B O . . | $$ . . , . . . . . B O . . | $$ . . . . . . 1 . . O . . | $$ . . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X O . O . . . | $$ . . . . 2 O X O . . . . | $$ . . . . . . X X O . . . | $$ . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ------------------------[/go]

Additionally, since White already has stones on the right, White may choose to play differently than the standard joseki. For example, White might consider saving his cutting stone.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ ------------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ . . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X O . O . . . | $$ . . . . 1 O X O . . . . | $$ . . . . . . X X O . . . | $$ . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ------------------------[/go]

I'd rather avoid such surprises.

Life In 19x19

#185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords

Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords

Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords

Re:

Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords

Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords

Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords

Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords

Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords

Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords