35. Magicwand (3d) vs. Kirby (1d)

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Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 3

Post by Magicwand »

Kirby wrote:Chew Terr mentioned something like this, too. I'm not really sure how to fix this directly, though.


one way that i know is...you play me with crazy handycap and lose some...and eventually you will feel comfortable and get stronger and win..
i think this is the whole point of Kerby-magicwand series.
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Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 3

Post by Magicwand »

Kirby wrote:
Harleqin wrote:
Definitely overplay, but I would be interested in other players' opinions on how to best exploit this situation.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: B=1, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X . X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O X X X . O O . X . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . O . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . X . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . 1 2 . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . O . X . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


My idea would be to lean here, in order to cap the left group afterwards.


Your idea is similar to what mine was during the game.


yes...but both missed something...
i wouldnt play 2 because it will put me deeper into trouble.
i know i played an overplay..but i minimized the damage by using them as an aji to seal the middle.
if i can play 2 and exchang with 3 then my 2 will help secure the middle...which is good enough for me.
but..before kill my aji i used it to create another aji in the corner.

it is all about the aji. when you have 1 stone then it is very flexable. once you make it 2 stone then you are no longer flexable.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: B=1, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X . X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O X X X . O O . X . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . O . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . X . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . 2 . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . 1 3 . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . O . X . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 3

Post by Bill Spight »

Kirby wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Kirby wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . O . . X . O . . X . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Now it's time to play this move, I think. It is big for both white and black. I don't have any tricky moves to reduce white's influence right now - but I don't think I need any. I'm going to win on territory alone!


My feeling is that this is an unwise approach. It may be successful at 3 stones, but. . . . Black has already gone for peanuts in the top right corner, while apparently letting his pincer stone die a dog's death. I believe in sacrifice, but really!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . O . . X . O . . X . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It seems to me that after :w2: Black has already lost one stone of his advantage, if not more.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . B . O . . X . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


IMO, this is more like it. :) :b1: keeps White from expanding his framework here, and calls, albeit distantly, to :bc: . It also threatens to make a nice framework on the left side.

Edit: Unhidden.


I don't really understand this. If I am going to try to play territorially, isn't it inconsistent to break up the framework?


If it is, so what? Style is style. It doesn't mean making inferior plays.

Judgement is one thing. It improves with experience. But, as I said, I feel that the approach is wrong. "Just let me live here and there and I will win on territory." If you just make territory you will lose points. Your gamble is that you won't lose enough for White to overcome the handicap.


I feel like the 3-3 is worth a lot of points. Is my intuition just bad?


As for this particular situation, the 3-3 is typically a double sente. If White plays there Black should make a base; if Black plays there White should protect his territory and group. In this case, however, the 3-3 is not sente for Black, as Magicwand points out. Enlarging his framework is bigger than defending his territory on the side. By the same token, reducing the framework is bigger than the 3-3. (It also makes a base. And in addition it threatens a framework on the left side.)

FWIW, Magicwand and I agree about both the assessment of the position and the play. That doesn't mean that we are right, OC. ;)
Last edited by Bill Spight on Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 3

Post by Magicwand »

Bill Spight wrote:FWIW, Magicwand and I agree about both the assessment of the position and the play. That doesn't mean that we are right, OC. ;)


i said many times in this forum there are two side to the coin.
1) is the direction correct? correct idea and motive?
2) if it is is it right way to play?
#2 is very hard and even professionals have different opinion on how to play.
but..#1 is easier than #2 because usually there are limited number of places you can play.
both Bill and I had correct idea and direction and motive. (i think)
but did we have optimal play? that is too hard and i will not answer and only give my opinion.
if you can improve on #1 the your game will improve much faster.
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The greater the unknown"
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Kirby
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Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 3

Post by Kirby »

Magicwand wrote:...
i can not answer your question because i dont have exact definition of weak stone.
but i can give you many points that is a better move than your move.
i would have played 'b' but all three points are better move than yours.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: B=1, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X . X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O X X X . O O . X . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . O . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . X . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . b . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . a C O . c . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . X , . X . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X . . . O . X . . O . X . O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


With "a", I was a bit afraid of the following at some point in the future:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: B=1, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X . X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O X X X . O O . X . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . O . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . X . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . b . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . B C O . c . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 4 3 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . X 5 . X . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X . . . O 6 X 7 . O . X . O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


but maybe I didn't need to worry about it at all. It seemed like dangerous aji.

"b" seems good, but don't you win on points still, then?
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Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 3

Post by Kirby »

Magicwand wrote:
Kirby wrote:Chew Terr mentioned something like this, too. I'm not really sure how to fix this directly, though.


one way that i know is...you play me with crazy handycap and lose some...and eventually you will feel comfortable and get stronger and win..
i think this is the whole point of Kerby-magicwand series.


Yes, that's exactly right. Sorry for the bad attitude.
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Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 3

Post by Bill Spight »

Kirby wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Kirby wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: B=1, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X . X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O X X X . O O . X . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . O . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . X . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Well, I have sente. I don't really understand Magicwand's last sequence. I think that it's missing the big picture. Magicwand's influence is already pretty great, so it seemed to me that he should have used it. I suppose it's a bit stronger now, but he gave me the opportunity to simply grab more territory.

I feel completely at ease with this game right now. Maybe he'll play something like K8 next. I'm not sure what's best, though.

I considered playing a large knight's enclosure, but it's not good because white can then play somewhere in the center and make one of my enclosures ineffective.


This play baffles me. As well as the fact the Kirby only mentions the large knight's extension as an alternative. What is so great about the left side? White is already strong there. Black has no attack, and the remaining 2 space extension is small. In addition, what relation does this play have with Black's other stones?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: B=1, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X . X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O X X X . O O . X . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . O . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . X . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . B . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . 1 . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:b1: is the obvious play, Not only is it a big point, it has a good relation to the marked stones.

People sometimes shrug off opening mistakes of this kind by saying that it only costs a point or two. But if you lost 2 points on every move you would get crushed. I would not be surprised if the difference between this play and the play in the game is more than two points.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: B=1, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X . X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O X X X . O O . X . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . O . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . X . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


For an alternative you might think of plays like this, to make it a bit easier to throw the tengen stone away. (Not that I recommend it, but it is better than the game play.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: B=1, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X . X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O X X X . O O . X . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . O . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . X . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 1 . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Or if you want to extend from the bottom left corner, extend on the bottom side, where you have potential to develop.

Edit: Unhidden.


I don't understand this, exactly. Isn't it big for white to approach on the left? It seems that he can complement his influence well this way.


First, it is not a lot of influence, because of the bad aji. Second, you have a tengen stone. Weak though it is, it hinders White's influence.

Second, you have stones, too. How will you make them work together?

Third, as has been mentioned, the breadth of the bottom side is greater than the breadth of the left side.

Let's compare combs:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: B=1, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X . X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O X X X . O O . X . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . O . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . X . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . B . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 2 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Suppose that Black plays on the bottom side and then White approaches from the left side. Play might continue this way. Indeed, :w2: and :w4: work well with :wc: . But look how well :b1: , :b3:, and :b5: work with :bc: !

But, you may say, :b3: and :b5: are not territory oriented.

Sorry, you are the one who played a stone on tengen.

But, you may say, it was necessary to reduce White's framework.

Indeed, it was, and it would have been better to reduce it earlier, with the move Magicwand and I suggested.

----

I was reading something today about getting better at tournament chess. It suggested studying a few openings deeply, because there is a lot of declarative knowledge to learn, and you should specialize. That also works in go, but to a much lesser extent. The battlefield is larger in go, and the scope of the plays is more limited. Your opponent has much more leeway in go. You cannot steer the game so much into familiar territory.

Even though he was giving three stones, Magicwand created a position where your best play was to reduce. It does not matter that your game plan called for making territory. You missed an early chance, but later made an attempt with the play at tengen. (Not as good as a deeper play, but a good idea.) Now that you have made that play, how do you make your plays work with it? It doesn't matter what your original game plan was, you should make a framework with it. Well, you did not make a framework with it. Now how do you throw it away? Your next play ignores that question, as you secure a corner. (Which you later lose, anyway.) In the end you live with the tengen stone, for 2.5 points (!), while giving up a strong wall.

The observer has to wonder, What is Black doing?

It is one thing to play for territory. But if that is all your early plays do, they are losing points. Take a look at some ancient games, say, early 19th century. Play was more territory oriented than now. They did not have the whole board vision that developed in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. But they didn't just make territory. It is instructive to see how much they appreciated influence. :)
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— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

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Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 3

Post by k43r »

If you look quickly through the game you can see that magicwand dictated the pace of the game.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This move is pass. Instead b should jump out at m15 or cap at o13. These are moves that shows the spirit.
m15 - I want to divide and fight
o13 - I want GRANDE MOYO!

Several moves later b entered san-san at c17 - again the same! K4! D10!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O . . X . O . . X . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . X . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O W . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


At this moment b has 6 disconnected groups! When white entered lower side the game was over. I'd say Kirby needs to read "breakthrough to shodan" before next game. You are lacking ideas to play at grand scale :) You should also play a lot more games as a white.
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Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 3

Post by Harleqin »

Playing territorially means that when there are two equivalent choices, one chooses the one which gets more immediate cash. It does not mean to choose inferior options just because the others are not territorial enough.
A good system naturally covers all corner cases without further effort.
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Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 3

Post by Bill Spight »

Kirby wrote:
daniel_the_smith wrote:
Kirby wrote:
I am going to keep my lead this game. Mark my words.


By pushing along the second line? O.o



Is there a better response to his attachment?


Maybe the descent? (Do a tewari.)
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

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Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 3

Post by Bill Spight »

Kirby wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Magicwand wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: B=1, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X . X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O X X X . O O . X . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . O . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . X . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . W . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black is still ahead, but White is on pace to win, thanks to Black's lackluster play. I am glad that Kirby is thinking of attacking. However, White has only one weak group now.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: B=1, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X . X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O X X X . O O . X . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . O . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . X . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . B . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . 1 , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . O . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:b1: is the obvious play to try to mount an attack, leaning against the White group on the bottom side. But then Black does not seem to have much against the marked White stone, given the weakness of the Black tengen stone (marked).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: B=1, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X . X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O X X X . O O . X . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . O . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . X . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . S O . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . O . S . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:b1: here looks more flexible, aiming at the one space jump or the jump attachment (marked).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: B=1, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X . X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O X X X . O O . X . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . O . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . X . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . B . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . W . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . a , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . O . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It seems to me that the key to this position is Black's tengen stone. If it dies a dog's death it will be hard for Black to win. :b1: comes to mind. Now B"a" does attack the marked White stone as well as the White group on the bottom side. If White plays on the bottom side, then B"b" looks good.

Edit: While I was writing this note, Kirby played the approach on the bottom side.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: B=1, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X . X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O X X X . O O . X . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . O . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . X . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . O . 1 . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is a good play, too. It extends Black's framework while attacking, a dual-purpose play. :)

Edit: Unhidden.


J7 is an interesting idea. It's not really a territorial play though, is it? Is it more important for me to try to generate influence at this point in the game?


I don't really think in those terms. Your play is fine, combining attack and making a framework. Maybe it is better than J-07. :) I just hate for a play to become mochikomi.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 3

Post by Bill Spight »

Kirby wrote:
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Kirby wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: B=1, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X . X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O X X X . O O . X . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . O . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . X . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . B O . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . X , . X . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X . . . O . X . . O . X . O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Does anyone else have doubts about the wisdom of attaching to a weak stone?


I agree about not touching a weak stone. But is this white stone really weak? I thought that it was strong since it was backed by white's influence. I felt that attaching would help me to do something inside his area of influence.

Is it really a weak stone?


Yes, it is. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: B=1, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X . X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O X X X . O O . X . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . O . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . X . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O W . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . C . C . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . C B . . C . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . C . . . . . C . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . C . . . . . . . C . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . C . . . . O . . . . C X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . C . . . . . . . C . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . C . . . . . C . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . B . . B C . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X . . . O . B . C O . X . O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . C . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Within a Manhattan distance of 5, it has one friendly stone to four enemy stones. True, the Black tengen stone is even weaker, but Black's play should strengthen it.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 3

Post by Kirby »

Bill Spight wrote:...

Yes, it is. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: B=1, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X . X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O X X X . O O . X . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . O . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . X . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O W . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . C . C . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . C B . . C . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . C . . . . . C . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . C . . . . . . . C . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . C . . . . O . . . . C X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . C . . . . . . . C . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . C . . . . . C . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . B . . B C . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X . . . O . B . C O . X . O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . C . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Within a Manhattan distance of 5, it has one friendly stone to four enemy stones. True, the Black tengen stone is even weaker, but Black's play should strengthen it.


The reason I am against contacting a weak stone is because the contact tends to strengthen both sides, and it makes a weak stone stronger. That's also my rationale for why people say to attach to strong stones.

In this case, I thought that attaching might bring strength to the marked black stone in your diagram if white defended as he did in the game.

1.) Is this part correct? Does the attachment bring strength to black as well in the relative area? This was my feeling.

2.) I didn't think of the white stone as being weak at all because of the weakness of my tengen stone. The stone seems quite safe because it can always attack my tengen.

However, based on what you've said, I am gathering that if I play another move that is not a contact move to help my tengen stone, I strengthen my weakness without strengthening his.

In other words, white's stone is not weak for as long as my tengen is weak. But if I play a move to help my tengen without contacting, the white stone becomes more weak.

This is what I am getting from the explanation. Am I still missing something?
be immersed
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Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 3

Post by Bill Spight »

Kirby wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:...

Yes, it is. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: B=1, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X . X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O X X X . O O . X . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . O . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . X . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O W . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . C . C . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . C B . . C . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . C . . . . . C . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . C . . . . . . . C . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . C . . . . O . . . . C X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . C . . . . . . . C . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . C . . . . . C . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . B . . B C . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X . . . O . B . C O . X . O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . C . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Within a Manhattan distance of 5, it has one friendly stone to four enemy stones. True, the Black tengen stone is even weaker, but Black's play should strengthen it.


The reason I am against contacting a weak stone is because the contact tends to strengthen both sides, and it makes a weak stone stronger. That's also my rationale for why people say to attach to strong stones.

In this case, I thought that attaching might bring strength to the marked black stone in your diagram if white defended as he did in the game.

1.) Is this part correct? Does the attachment bring strength to black as well in the relative area? This was my feeling.

2.) I didn't think of the white stone as being weak at all because of the weakness of my tengen stone. The stone seems quite safe because it can always attack my tengen.

However, based on what you've said, I am gathering that if I play another move that is not a contact move to help my tengen stone, I strengthen my weakness without strengthening his.

In other words, white's stone is not weak for as long as my tengen is weak. But if I play a move to help my tengen without contacting, the white stone becomes more weak.

This is what I am getting from the explanation. Am I still missing something?


Both stones are weak, but the tengen stone is weaker. Each player to play can strengthen his own stone without strengthening the other.

White's stone, although weak, is not in any real danger of being killed. Black's stone is. So my first thought is about sacrificing it. Maybe you played the attachment with the idea of saving it. Well, you did, but at what cost? :)
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Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 3

Post by Kirby »

Bill Spight wrote:...

Both stones are weak, but the tengen stone is weaker. Each player to play can strengthen his own stone without strengthening the other.

White's stone, although weak, is not in any real danger of being killed. Black's stone is. So my first thought is about sacrificing it. Maybe you played the attachment with the idea of saving it. Well, you did, but at what cost? :)


I understand that my play in the game was bad, and I think that I get everything that you've said except for the one part:

"White's stone, although weak, is not in any real danger of being killed."

I don't understand how a stone that is not in any real danger is weak, I guess. This is what is getting me with the whole "don't contact a weak stone" bit, I think.

How can I tell if a stone is weak? The manhattan distance trick is kind of interesting, but I'm not really sure how to tell if a stone is weak when it is not in any danger.
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