#201 drmwc vs lovelove

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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

lovelove wrote:I personally think white territory is slightly better than black influence in this variation,
although black has sente now.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$m11
$$ ---------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X O X . . . . , . . . . . ,
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Locally, this variation:
Pros with the corner include: Honinbo Shuwa (1841), Honinbo Shuho (1858), Hashimoto Utaro, Kitani Minoru, Go Seigen,
Fujisawa Shuko, Iwamoto Kaoru, Kato Masao, Ishida Yoshio, Rui Naiwei, Cho Chikun, Yoda Norimoto.

Pros with the ponnuki include: Honinbo Shusai, Kitani Minoru, Hashimoto Utaro, Sakata Eio, Otake Hideo, O Rissei, Cho U.
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Re:

Post by Alguien »

EdLee

(I'm not sure I've understood your reply)

Wouldn't the most important part of that analysis be the value of sente in each case?

Even if all pros took the corner, it might only mean that every time the opportunity arose, sente was of less value than in this game?
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Post by EdLee »

Alguien,
Alguien wrote:Wouldn't the most important part of that analysis...
Zero analysis. Just a fun factoid. Don't over read into it. :)
Alguien wrote:Even if all pros took the corner...
That was a search result, with 42 pro games -- obviously, 42 pros took the corner, and the other 42 pros took the ponnuki. :)
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Re: #201 drmwc vs lovelove

Post by drmwc »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


For some reason, the diagram appears not to have worked.

I changed my mind about the approach in the lower left. I'll post more tomorrow,
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Re: #201 drmwc vs lovelove

Post by lovelove »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I believe my sense in fuseki.
Amsterdam, soon.
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Re: #201 drmwc vs lovelove

Post by drmwc »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: #201 drmwc vs lovelove

Post by drmwc »

If I had played as I orginally planned:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm17
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 3 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 5 . . . 9 . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I don't like this -26 is on an ideal point. W has a lot of territory, and 26 neutralises a lot of my influence. I don't have many ways to vary from this diagram:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm17
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 3 . . . . 0 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 5 . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is an alternative, but it alos feels slack for me.

Back to the game, my plan is:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 2 4 6 8 . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . 3 5 7 . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Whie's wall is not particualrly effective here. An alternative plan for W is:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 2 5 . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 1 6 3 4 . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . 9 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It looks like B can fight reasonably effectively here - the ladder is good for B, and I won't let W capture the cutting stone.
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Re: #201 drmwc vs lovelove

Post by Magicwand »

this move seems lacking consistency.
i wouldnt have played that move..

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: #201 drmwc vs lovelove

Post by The Intrepid »

@Magicwand
What moves would you consider playing instead?
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.
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Re: #201 drmwc vs lovelove

Post by lovelove »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . 2 . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Amsterdam, soon.
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Re: #201 drmwc vs lovelove

Post by drmwc »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: #201 drmwc vs lovelove

Post by lovelove »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Amsterdam, soon.
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Re: #201 drmwc vs lovelove

Post by drmwc »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm27
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O 1 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X 2 3 O . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: #201 drmwc vs lovelove

Post by lovelove »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm27
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't know if this is joseki, but my cut (D4) was a natural move, and the white stone on low side is in a good position.
Amsterdam, soon.
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

lovelove wrote:I don't know if this is joseki, but my cut (D4) was a natural move, and the white stone on low side is in a good position.
Seems highly unlikely that this could be joseki, with Black making the broken shape in White, in sente...
but let's double check and find out...
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