MoyoGo available again

[Bonobo]

Okay then, so let me please pluck this apart … in the interest of a better (mutual) understanding:

Frank, I'm sorry that you aren't able to understand why people responded the way that they did

(italics by me) How about “I’m sorry that we haven’t been able to convey why people responded the way that they did …”? This could keep the heat low b/c of no judgement about the other’s understanding. The way you put it doesn’t make the “sorry” part very convincing

to the conditions you chose to set for the use of your software.

This is something I don’t know about (cf. my 1st post here). Some copy protection scheme, I presume?

[..] That we disagree about reality isn't an indication that my thinking process is inferior.

Nor need it be superior since reality doesn’t give a beep about what we think about it

Garbage in, garbage out, regardless of the logic circuits.

Since, as I have admitted, I know nothing of the history of this dispute, this sounds to me a bit self-righteous … defining reality, defining garbage …

If you really did have a neural net taught to play go well it is a shame that development with this very different approach isn't continuing.

(italics by me) Here I’d prefer to read it with reduced implicit blame, perhaps like this: “… it is a pity that development … isn’t continuing.”

[hyperpape]

Okay then, so let me please pluck this apart … in the interest of a better (mutual) understanding:

Frank, I'm sorry that you aren't able to understand why people responded the way that they did

(italics by me) How about “I’m sorry that we haven’t been able to convey why people responded the way that they did …”? This could keep the heat low b/c of no judgement about the other’s understanding. The way you put it doesn’t make the “sorry” part very convincing

No, Mike is just being objective. More information can be found on SL if you look, as well as much of Google.

[Ellyster]

@FrankdeGroot:

First of all:

I finally had to give up. Those years I was working on the software, I was battling a very severe neuroborreliosis as well, which was sheer hell to go through with frequent hospital stays.

That's really serious stuff, I hope that you are recovering well and fast.



And, secondly, about Moyo Go Studio:

I found the sources but I don't consider the project worth pursuing any more.

Really sorry to hear that, I don't agree, I think that Moyo Go Studio is certainly a worth to continue project, without any hint of doubt. Even after being several years "out of the market" is still one of the TOP programs, that should be an clear proof of its value.

I will under no circumstances ever release any part of my sourcecode, and I will never work on Go software again.

Even sadder to hear news, as a Go entusiast, Go student and a Computer Go programmer (and IA researcher), I really wanted to see the Moyo Go source code, and new features, some day. As well as new works of you in the Go area.



And at last but not at least (about the attacks, controversy, boycot...):

Nearly all of the Western Go world, nearly all of you here and elsewhere, you have worked very hard to get Moyo Go Studio eliminated from the world of Go software. After years of your attacks you finally succeeded - just after I finalized my designs for a TsumeGo solving module and a self-learning neural network (with an initial population of millions of neurons - radically different design using a genetic algorithm, learning from game records and playing against itself) for a Go playing engine. You made a major achievement in your efforts to prevent these plans to come to fruition because I am a persistent person. So: Congratulations - you fought long and hard and you eventually succeeded in destroying Moyo Go Studio.

Sorry, but I cannot agree with this... generalization is not really good, in this case, because two main points:

1) I don't think that the ultimate target of anyone was get Moyo Go eliminated form the world of Go software, I think they tried to attack your income source (the same that happens with a big company).

I have not hear, in person, any single critizising the quality of the software ever... and that is VERY rare, since all software has its detractors.

Some pro-"free software" people complained about you being too reserved, some others about doing too much marketing... a dissagrement totally understandable since your work intended to be commercial software, and theirs not. But no one has complained about the functionality, so instead of taking all the bad feeling you should be looking at the bright side.



2) I don't believe that L19x19 (or any forum) can be taken as a significative sample of the Go players in the world... not regarding to Go opinions... and even less regarding to political/moral/cultural opinions (which I recall was the trigger of the boycot, I have read a about it, but it was previous to me).


In Spain for example, your point of view, was the majority one. "Freedom of speech" is consider more important than "personal sensibilities", now matter how stupid or even insulting the opinion is. Nowadays is sadly changing to censoreship about religion, and some other topics.

But, for example, it has being always restricted about terrorism (terrorism apology felony)... since that is the cultural bagage that Spain have had, now that is over it may change. So I understand that people in countries, where nazism was really bad during a long time, can have their own cultural sensibility (nazism apology felony). Because it is a really good short term policy to avoid repeating the same mistakes.

It maybe unfair not being able to discuss about certaing topics since you cannot express your opinions if you are in the restricted side (no matter how crazy, in the bad sense, that idea is)... but is just matter of time to stop being so... when II World War truely become only history (in the same way that we don't care about political opinions in the Ancient Egipt).



I think that the only real mistake was that you understimated how sensible some people still are concerning II WW, and failed in forseing how your action was going to be viewed... that defending someone general "freedom of speech", in this particular case, was going to be viewed as necesarely sympathizing with the defended ideology.




I will still hope that one day, even in the worst case in a far future, you change your mind and stop taking every single person's opinion too seriously. No matter what they say, changing opinions is a wise men thing.

Best wishes, Ellyster

<Disclaimer>
P.D.: I don't try to open a flame here, nor brake the forum rules, I'm not talking about politics... I'm talking just about cultural differences. So please refrain of using my post to change the topic.
</Disclaimer>

[daal]

Ellyster: I don't know how old you are, but when there are still people around who have experienced something, it's not just history. Plenty of people who were children during WWII are still alive and still have strong feelings about how and why their families were killed. What you are allowed to say where may be a matter of culture, but if you want to say things that offend huge numbers of people on the page where your software is being sold internationally you can't seriously complain about people not wanting to buy it.

That said, this wasn't the only marketing mistake.

As to the software, what was particularly unique was the way it used pattern matching to evaluate moves. Frank's work showed us a number of possibilities as to where go software could go. Hopefully someone will learn from them.

[Ellyster]

@Daal: I completely and without reserves agree with you.

Ellyster: I don't know how old you are, but when there are still people around who have experienced something, it's not just history. Plenty of people who were children during WWII are still alive and still have strong feelings about how and why their families were killed.

I'm not sure if the English of my previous post is mistaked (and can be interpreted in an other way ), but what you are saying is precisely what I intended to say, that WWII is still a recent fact to lot of people, so is perfectly normal that discussions are not taken from a "history point of view" but from a "personal point of view", and that needs to be taken in consideration when laws are done.

Consider Nazism apology a felony can be argued to be theoretically wrong (as nothing should go against one really important liberty as the "Freedom of speech"), but in practice, when you put it in context (Middle Europe countries, today), it makes perfect juridical sense to be as it is.

And of course is a matter of culture, since the culture of a country is the sum of opinions and feelings of the people that lives in that country, for example in Portugal, Spain and Italy this may not be as serious issue as in Germany or France, since we were never invaded by Nazi troops (but for us, other "dictatorships apologies" that happened at the same time applies and makes perfect juridical sense).


I personaly don't think that a serious topic like this will become "just history" and end as soon as all the survivors die... but rather something far later than after all the survivors' grandchildrend die (I'm my experience, things that happened to a relative and a person who you knew and cared about, can still produced strong feelings even if he/she passed away long time ago).

What you are allowed to say where may be a matter of culture, but if you want to say things that offend huge numbers of people on the page where your software is being sold internationally you can't seriously complain about people not wanting to buy it.

Yes, of course!

That's how boycots work in the first place, I just remarked a boycot to a product has usually nothing to do with the product quality being bad, in fact, it usually goes the other way around, you care more about the "marketing", "company opinions" and "the manufacture process" of a product (usual reasons of a boycot) as the quality of the product increases.

Is just that, from my personal point of view, Frank De Groot seemed to take the boycot as an attack to the product quality rather to an attack to the product marketing, and software, specially when you worked hard and long on it, is like a son to its developer... so when it is criticized it isn't easy to handle.



Anyway, as I said before, I just wanted to express my disappointment about not being able to see new improvements of Moyo Go Studio in the future (not to open old wounds).

[daal]

@ Ellyster - thanks for the clarification.

[FrankdeGroot]

Someone mentioned that the majority of games in MGS are "lifted from GoGoD".

In fact, MGS contains hundreds of thousands of Ama games and the number of pro games that were unique to GoGoD alone were at most 3000 games, mainly very old ones that I may even have deleted.

Hence, a negligeable percentage of games that come with MGS are unique for GoGoD. I used very many game databases from sources all over the world. Private collections, Chinese pros that sent me many records, every imaginable source was used. Since Go records are not copyrightable, this was fully legal.

[admin] Several sentences removed for being in violation of the TOS -JB [/admin]

[FrankdeGroot]

I have just been informed by the censor of this forum that I am not allowed to explain what the real reason for the boycot of my software was.

[badukJr]

Did you get sued?

[Joaz Banbeck]

[admin]

For some reason, most threads about moyoGo seem to end badly, with off topic references to mental illness, lawsuits, and WWII. I ask all posters to stick to the topic, and in particular to avoid those three tempting off topic subjects.

Thanks
JB

[/admin]

[SoDesuNe]

People ought to have the right to make an educated choice. Since you have to pay for this software, you support the individual behind it. And some individuals (and companys) I personaly don't like to support because I know what they will support with my money then.

[FrankdeGroot]

I did not get sued. I am not allowed to name names by the moderator, but I can tell you it has nothing to do with my opinion on WW2 history.

I published my controversial opinion on WW2 history two years after I had completely given up on the software.

The real reason was an attempt by two competitors to completely ostracize me from the Computer Go world, because I was a threat to their bottom line. That's all there was to it. I was falsely accused of unethical things, and "you" (Go players) bought it hook, line and sinker.

No hard feelings though! I learnt tremendously much from the whole episode, in terms of how neurotypical humans think (As I said, I have Aspergers), also some programming techniques I now use to my advantage, business sense etc. So I guess you can say that you all helped me to achieve success after all, for which I am truly grateful.

[Mike Novack]

[admin]
For some reason, most threads about moyoGo seem to end badly, with off topic references to mental illness, lawsuits, and WWII. I ask all posters to stick to the topic, and in particular to avoid those three tempting off topic subjects.
Thanks
JB
[/admin]

But note the post following your ruling.

The problem, Joaz, is that to declare that these things are off topic (irrelevant) to decisions about MoyoGo is in fact to have taken a side in the matter in dispute. I agree with you that this forum is not the place to discuss these things but we mustn't go so far as to pretend that there aren't things "off topic" influencing whether people will accept or reject MoyoGo unrelated to the merits of the software.

We can acknowledge that without going into any details about the elephant in the corner of the room, even whether it is an elephant or a rhinoceros. Part of the dispute is that some people feel whatever big critter is over in that corner of the room doesn't affect the use of the room and some people feel that it does.

In fact, Joaz, in listing specific things to be off topic you have gone farther in describing what that big critter might be than I have. I'd have left it up to the curious to research back forum discussions to find out for themselves. But if you were really meaning to say that we can discuss the pros and cons of MoyoGo without taking these off topic things into account, then you have taken a side.

[FrankdeGroot]

They say time heals all wounds and for me, the severe wounds have healed because I became very successful in what I do now. Even if MGS would have been a resounding success worldwide I would never have had so much financial freedom as I have today. So I am not bitter any more. One could argue that it had been a mistake to focus on Go software.

What remains is the lessons one can take away from the episode. It is an interesting thing that happened to me. I never imagined that what happened, would ever happen. I simply was totally naive. I think like a computer, that's why I am a good programmer I guess. Everything has to be "logical" with me. To me, it was logical and ethical what I did.

The lessons I learnt from you were very valuable. I learned how neurotypical people think. I had no idea. If you understand the neurotypical mind, you can predict their thoughts, given certain inputs. And you can also predict the outputs. So if I desire a certain output, given the "formula" that is the neurotypical mind, I can calculate what inputs I need to present.

Thinking like an autist, an Asperger, wasted only four years of my efforts but I have increasingly able to focus my efforts on the neurotypical mind, with great success.

I learnt that neurotypicals are not interested in truths. Truths interfere too much with their beliefs. Neurotypicals are emotional beings, seeking constant reinforcement of their deeply held beliefs such as their value systems. Logic and rational arguments play an insignificant role for them.

It took me years of practical study, researching and testing the neurotypical mind, in order for me to form even a vague concept of how it operates. I had to do that, otherwise I knew I was doomed in society. I can recommend the book "A Field Guide to Earthlings: An autistic/Asperger view of neurotypical behavior" for those who struggle with the same problem. Of course it is impossible to truly understand neurotypicals for someone with Asperger's ("neurotypicals is not a derogatory term, it means "people with a normal brain", vs. people on the autistic spectrum).

[FrankdeGroot]

Incidentally, if you take the side of Aaron Swartz, you will take my side as well. I comitted the same "crime" - actually a much lesser one, not even a crime, legally speaking.