Fuseki Question

lovelove · Post by **lovelove** » Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:57 pm

I was in Kaya.gs looking at Roozen 3dan's lecture, and got into some disagreement, which I shouldn't ^^, against Roozen and all other Lecture viewers. It was about the fuseki below.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . X . 1 . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White 1 is the move I learned to play, here in Korea, and that after this invasion white usually has a comfortable result. So black avoids this fuseki in modern go.

However, nobody in that lecture except me seemed to agree with that move. They liked the top-right corner approach much better. Of course the corner approach is good too, but than F5 will be a too good move for black. Am I wrong with something?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 continued... $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . 2 4 X 0 . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . X 8 1 3 5 6 9 . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm11 white comfortable $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X X X X . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . X X O O O X O . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 2 . . O . 1 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 black active $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 3 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . 6 . 8 . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . O 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

oren · Post by **oren** » Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:06 pm

lovelove wrote:White 1 is the move I learned to play, here in Korea, and that after this invasion white usually has a comfortable result. So black avoids this fuseki in modern go.

This is what I learned in "Becoming 5k" from Baduk TV. However, the teacher in the program seems to believe it still leads to an even game if I understand it correctly.

gasana · Post by **gasana** » Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:12 pm

well, on GoGoD, (sorry christmas has just past, i'm still playing with my new toy :mrgreen:

)

i find 85 times this position, w played upper right 61 times, upper middle hoshi 10, upper middle on third line 5, and the invasion come 4th with 4 hint.

In the position b wins 61.2% (here i suspect i do something wrong in fact... maybe someone can check?, orthewise seems really nice opening^^). After the invasion w win 3 out of 4... (maybe this explains, but number seems to small...)

Personnaly i like the invasion, at my level many people still handle it the incorectly, and i have a book from Lee Chang-Ho with all the detail variations :rambo:

lovelove · Post by **lovelove** » Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:12 pm

oren wrote:
lovelove wrote:White 1 is the move I learned to play, here in Korea, and that after this invasion white usually has a comfortable result. So black avoids this fuseki in modern go.

This is what I learned in "Becoming 5k" from Baduk TV. However, the teacher in the program seems to believe it still leads to an even game if I understand it correctly.

What I meant "comfortable" is that black can have a hard time catching up the komi, overall result can be close. In that diagram, black doesn't have a good moyo like in Chinese or mini-Chinese opening, and doesn't have a lot of solid territory like in the orthodox variations. It can be hard for black to make out something during that game, while white can solidly play along.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm11 [that diagram] white comfortable $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X X X X . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . X X O O O X O . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 2 . . O . 1 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:24 pm

Go Seigen recommends the invasion at h3 rather than the approach. If white does approach, he recommends the descent to q2: if white blocks in the corner then black is happy to play 1st line hane connect too and get sente yose (which also makes it harder for white to invade lower side) and then jump to f5 (allowing double approach at top), if white resists by answering q2 with the s8 attachment then black just nobis along building thickness which makes a white double approach at r14 less powerful so indirectly q2 answers the approach at the top.

pwaldron · Post by **pwaldron** » Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:35 pm

lovelove wrote:However, nobody in that lecture except me seemed to agree with that move. They liked the top-right corner approach much better. Of course the corner approach is good too, but than F5 will be a too good move for black. Am I wrong with something?

I don't think you're wrong, but I don't think you're right either. Gasana has already pointed out that this position has shown up in pro matches plenty of times, and the overwhelming favorite play (75% in fact) for white is the approach move. Hardly a ringing endorsement of the immediate invasion, although the invasion is the only move for white that doesn't lose more often than not.

Clearly with pros playing the approach move it's a valid option, but with black apparently doing very well from this position it looks like white is already a step behind.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:44 pm

pwaldron wrote:
I don't think you're wrong, but I don't think you're right either. Gasana has already pointed out that this position has shown up in pro matches plenty of times, and the overwhelming favorite play (75% in fact) for white is the approach move. Hardly a ringing endorsement of the immediate invasion, although the invasion is the only move for white that doesn't lose more often than not.

That opening was very popular in the 1990s, there are less than a dozen in the 2000s. This suggests to me that lovelove is right: this opening has all but disappeared for black because the invasion is good for white. Judgements of positions change over time so the fact a shape appeared a lot in the past doesn't mean it is considered even today. If you are happy to play moves than 9ps thought were the best 15 years ago then approach, after all us amateurs are going to make far bigger mistakes later in the game, but it you want to play like a 9p of today then invade.

ez4u · Post by **ez4u** » Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:51 pm

Uberdude wrote:
pwaldron wrote:
I don't think you're wrong, but I don't think you're right either. Gasana has already pointed out that this position has shown up in pro matches plenty of times, and the overwhelming favorite play (75% in fact) for white is the approach move. Hardly a ringing endorsement of the immediate invasion, although the invasion is the only move for white that doesn't lose more often than not.

That opening was very popular in the 1990s, there are less than a dozen in the 2000s. This suggests to me that lovelove is right: this opening has all but disappeared for black because the invasion is good for white. Judgements of positions change over time so the fact a shape appeared a lot in the past doesn't mean it is considered even today. If you are happy to play moves than 9ps thought were the best 15 years ago then approach, after all us amateurs are going to make far bigger mistakes later in the game, but it you want to play like a 9p of today then invade.

I can't resist sticking my nose in this. Unfortunately I am away from the desktop so no pretty pictures. This strikes me as a typical amateur discussion of fuseki. AFAIK it is pretty much all unsupported by actual practice. (I admit that all I actually know about professional practice is GoGoD, so I am blowing hot air as well - as always :blackeye:

)

What we can say is that when the pros who played Nirensei moved away from Sanrensei in the mid '80's, they started playing the approach at :b1:

below. White only answered at :w2:

about half the time (but that's obviously a different story). When White did go along, however, there was never a time when :b3:

below was the main line. Always Black has preferred the slide at "a" (about 70% of the time during the '90's). :b3:

was at best a 20% second choice. So I would hesitate to say it was ever very popular. As mentioned elsewhere we have a tiny set of games with the invasion and only one game with the reference position above (Cho Hun-hyeon vs. Yi Ch'ang-ho in 1997). So, case proven? YMMV. On the other discussion on the approach to the top, we have zero games with the reference position above where Black plays the one-space jump to F5, White takes the corner at D2, and Black plays the shoulder hit at D7 for an active position. Why so little evidence? One reason may be that when Black does make the one-space jump, White more often plays out at D9 than in the corner at D2. In the reference position that might well give White the active position rather than Black (but that is only to my amateur eye, which is notoriously suspect :blackeye:

)! To summarize, play whatever you feel like, the pros have not demonstrated a case either way that we are aware of.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 3 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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