If current opinion is that this is not joseki because White is too thick, then I suppose thatlovelove wrote:That is no more joseki. White is thick.Bill Spight wrote:
is the deviation from joseki?Small avalanche variation refutation
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Bill Spight
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Re: small avelanche variation refutation
is the deviation from joseki?The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Uberdude
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Re: Small avalanche variation refutation
This is bad for white, the simple dodge ofSmoothOper wrote: One of the plays that I had learned if you don't want to play out the full avalanche, but still want an even result is, which seems similar to your problem, but black has given up a stone.
is ok when black has played 
as nobi for the large avalanche as the 2 stones haven't lost a liberty, like this the hane is too painful for their liberties.-
emeraldemon
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Re: Small avalanche variation refutation
The one I learned is the trade on the SL page:
http://senseis.xmp.net/?SmallAvalanche
http://senseis.xmp.net/?SmallAvalanche
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Bill Spight
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Re: Small avalanche variation refutation
Here is a good example of the ambiguity of language. Indeed, this is a small avalanche joseki. However, it is not, on an empty board, an equitable exchange, something that we expect from joseki. It is better for White.emeraldemon wrote:The one I learned is the trade on the SL page:
http://senseis.xmp.net/?SmallAvalanche
The thing is, given the hane that makes the small avalanche, the rest is joseki.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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lovelove
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Re: small avelanche variation refutation
Black has an option to fight, but the double hane joseki has become really rare.Bill Spight wrote:If current opinion is that this is not joseki because White is too thick, then I suppose thatlovelove wrote:That is no more joseki. White is thick.Bill Spight wrote:
a or b in the next diagram is the modern choice in this avalanche joseki, which b is becoming more popular.
Amsterdam, soon.
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Bill Spight
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Re: small avelanche variation refutation
Bill Spight wrote:If current opinion is that this is not joseki because White is too thick, then I suppose thatlovelove wrote:That is no more joseki. White is thick.Bill Spight wrote:
This kind of fight is not new. Which still leaves me wondering why opinion has changed about the above diagram. It does not seem like any refutation has been found.lovelove wrote:Black has an option to fight, but the double hane joseki has become really rare.
Yes, I think that "b" is a new idea when Black does not already have a stone at "a".a or b in the next diagram is the modern choice in this avalanche joseki, which b is becoming more popular.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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DeFlow
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Re: small avelanche variation refutation
Jep, it might me worth looking at. =]skydyr wrote:The shape looks similar to the fight that developed from the small-avalanche double hane in my malkovich game against Deflow. It's not exactly the same, but might be worth looking at because it features the same general idea of a crosscut fight stemming from it.
My reason for playing it was related to your judgement of the position, Otenki. In retrospect however, the cut does not seem to create two weak groups for white.
P.s. I'm back! At least, I am relatively back.
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Tommie
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Re: Small avalanche variation refutation
Isn't this so easy to compare?
Herw, White has an eye and Black only cutting points.
Here Black has no cutting points and White is still attackable (i.e. not completely alive).
Hence, atari above is premature - bad style, IMO.
Before calling a variation obsolete, I still would like to know how to proceed,
once I am in it (i.e. having played E2).
Herw, White has an eye and Black only cutting points.
Here Black has no cutting points and White is still attackable (i.e. not completely alive).
Hence, atari
above is premature - bad style, IMO.Before calling a variation obsolete, I still would like to know how to proceed,
once I am in it (i.e. having played E2).
Greetings,
Tommie
3dan EGF (AGA no 13477) || Tommie on KGS: 'June'|| DGS: 'Zhi Laohu' 纸老虎 = 'paper tiger' || Senseis : http://senseis.xmp.net/?tderz ||
ENFP (MBTI) - 'Find your own style within the Fundamentals of Go! '
Tommie
3dan EGF (AGA no 13477) || Tommie on KGS: 'June'|| DGS: 'Zhi Laohu' 纸老虎 = 'paper tiger' || Senseis : http://senseis.xmp.net/?tderz ||
ENFP (MBTI) - 'Find your own style within the Fundamentals of Go! '
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Tommie
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Re: Small avalanche variation refutation
How about practising shape evaluation?
BC as option (c).
BC as option (c).
Greetings,
Tommie
3dan EGF (AGA no 13477) || Tommie on KGS: 'June'|| DGS: 'Zhi Laohu' 纸老虎 = 'paper tiger' || Senseis : http://senseis.xmp.net/?tderz ||
ENFP (MBTI) - 'Find your own style within the Fundamentals of Go! '
Tommie
3dan EGF (AGA no 13477) || Tommie on KGS: 'June'|| DGS: 'Zhi Laohu' 纸老虎 = 'paper tiger' || Senseis : http://senseis.xmp.net/?tderz ||
ENFP (MBTI) - 'Find your own style within the Fundamentals of Go! '
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Uberdude
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skydyr
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Re: Small avalanche variation refutation
Uberdude's variation looks fairly equal to me, if not advantageous for black, but wasn't the original comment about it being obsolete that _white_ is too thick?
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Uberdude
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Re: Small avalanche variation refutation
Joseki evaluations like that are based on an empty board. This board is not empty. Black already has a strong group on the lower left and white is open at j2, and white has only extended as far as k4 from his thickness so it already clear what profit white can get from that thickness (less than on an empty board where white would make a bigger extension). Black evidently judged it was not too much.skydyr wrote:Uberdude's variation looks fairly equal to me, if not advantageous for black, but wasn't the original comment about it being obsolete that _white_ is too thick?