#185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:09 am

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:33 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm34 $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . X O O O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:34 am

The Intrepid · Post by **The Intrepid** » Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:32 am

OK, as expected. Now I need to think whether White's move is sente right now, or not. If I let, White capture the Black stone at L7, White will get a great shape in the center. However, the cost of this would be two moves. Is the ponuki + removal of bad aji in the White group worth losing two moves in this position? It's a difficult question because the value of thickness is hard to evaluate.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc :b2: tenuki, :b6: tenuki $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O 5 X O O O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 3 X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X 4 . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

The Intrepid · Post by **The Intrepid** » Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:39 am

Hey, Ed, would you prefer that I make moves and write about these moves in separate comments? Personally, I do not click "quote" to make moves but simply use the "click here to show diagram code" option and copy-paste the code in my response. However, if you do, it's not a problem for me to accommodate you.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:56 pm

The Intrepid, it's no problem -- I am super careful with the Quote button.
In general, I assume any post that is not mine has a hidden comment,
so by default I do not Quote unless I'm sure the post has no hidden comments.

Usually, my procedure is I Quote my last move, then add your latest move, then add my current move.

The Intrepid · Post by **The Intrepid** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:04 am

OK, great! I prefer to have hidden comments together with my move rather than have them separately. This way, as I'm writing the explanation for the move, I have the ability to correct myself in case I discover the move to be a mistake.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm35 $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . X O O O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

I do not know whether cutting off the stone at J7 would have been objectively stronger than the move in the game or not. If Black were to capture the stone (which is likely), Black would get a very large amount of territory.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O B . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . B . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . c . B . b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . B O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . c c . B O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . B O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . a 4 C . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 5 3 2 O C . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O 1 X O O O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

However, the marked Black group would become very weak, as well. White could next consider pushing once more at "a," or attacking the weak Black group at "b" or "c." The group might end up being short on eyes locally--and there wouldn't be too many places where the group could run to, so saving the group could prove difficult. Moreover, White could also decide to let Black live small in exchange for a big wall around "c." This would give White a very big moyo.

Therefore, to conclude, while separating the stone at J7 looks very big, the resulting position would be chaotic and the outcome uncertain. I'm curious to know how the resulting fight might have turned out, but this matter will have to wait until EdLee and I review the game.

Instead, with

, I decided to return to the original conception for this game. My initial thought was to play a calm game, avoiding unnecessary complications. Even though I veered away from this idea by playing experimental josekis and offering White at least two chances to initiate complicated fights, I will now return to the original plan. With this in mind, here's what I plan to do:

#1: make Black group on the right impervious to attack. Once this group is alive, I can invade the top side without fear and I can severely hamper any attempts by White to build a large moyo in the center.

#2: approach the top-left corner (at C14) and play other big points on the left side of the board. Currently, the left side is the biggest unoccupied area on the board, so playing there is very big for either player.

#3: invade the top, extend toward the center from the group on the right, or make a shimari at the bottom-left corner, depending on the situation.

#4: take the bottom-right corner.

To illustrate the first two points, the following is what might happen next:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . 8 . . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . 9 . . . . . , . 5 . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O 4 X O O O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 2 X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X 3 . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:14 am

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:32 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm36 $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . X O O O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:36 am

Variations for

:
Very broken shape for W, and I'm not sure of the result:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Var 1 $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . W . X O O O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 3 X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Also not sure of this result:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Var 2 $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . W 1 X O O O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Similar to the game:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Var 3 $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . W . X O O O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:39 am

Variation for

-- it's a fight, and I'm not sure of the result:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . 6 5 3 2 O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 4 O 1 X O O O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

The Intrepid · Post by **The Intrepid** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:28 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm37 $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . X O O O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X 1 . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

An interesting question is whether the way I played in the game is better or worse than if I had played at K5 three moves ago. In other words, which of the two diagrams (with White to move in both) is better for Black?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 2 X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 3 . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . 1 . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O O . O O O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

It is a trade, of course--Black stabilized his group in exchange for giving White thickness in the center--but I like this trade (so far).

By the way, I will think about my next move rather than play at M10 automatically. This is why I did not offer a trigger. Besides, perhaps EdLee will be kind enough to play at K6.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . X O O O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 2 1 O X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:02 am

Variation for

-- if

atari, B can tenuki once with

, then

ponnuki (in sente?) :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W :b2: tenuki $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O 1 X O O O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 3 X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X 4 . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

In the game, since B replied with

, B did not get the tenuki.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:39 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm38 $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . 1 . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . X O O O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:42 am

Life In 19x19

#185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords

Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords

Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords

Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords

Re: #185 EdLee vs. The Intrepid: The Swords