One Of The Best...Ever?

[oren]

I thought the topic was if he was one of the best Japanese players. He will hold many title records in Japan for a long time.

However, he is far from being strong internationally since the Korean and Chinese players are stronger than Japan has been for a while. I guess it just depends on what you're looking for.

I guess I thought this question was more like "Is Landon Donovan one of the best American soccer players ever".

[hailthorn011]

I thought the topic was if he was one of the best Japanese players. He will hold many title records in Japan for a long time.

However, he is far from being strong internationally since the Korean and Chinese players are stronger than Japan has been for a while. I guess it just depends on what you're looking for.

I guess I thought this question was more like "Is Landon Donovan one of the best American soccer players ever".

That actually is how I meant it. That's why I specified Japanese in the original post. I suppose I should have clarified this sooner though.

[jts]

I don't know, he went 1-1 against international opponents in 2012 and 5-5 against international opponents in 2011. The numbers are so small that it's hard to make a definitive case one way or another, but he's definitely been dominating in Japan in the last few years, and posting decent international results at the same time despite putting a huge amount of energy into contesting all those domestic tournaments. I don't think anyone is claiming Yuuta was awesome when he was still a chubby kid with braces.

If anyone is allowed to claim to be "one of the strongest" it would be someone like Gu Li, right? But he went 20-18 against international opponents in 2012, and 10-8 in 2011. I'm sure there is some Korean or Chinese player who has a better raw winning percentage, but going toe-to-toe with the best players in the world and winning about half seems to be good for anyone.

[ez4u]

... but going toe-to-toe with the best players in the world and winning about half seems to be good for anyone.

Good, yes. And the step from 'Good' to 'Best ever' is...?

[tapir]

I think the fact that he bounces out in the first round prelims of world tournaments speaks more about the overall quality of Japanese Go than him being a great player.

If you are going to deride Japanese Go at least get your facts straight. When he isn't seeded into the main tournament he (as most Japanese top players) usually doesn't participate. -> He doesn't play preliminaries at all, even with less than stellar records internationally it is very hard to lose in the preliminaries if you don't play them.

[FlameBlade]

What I would love is to have an international tournament with a rather large purse, and 8 hours main time for each. That, I would love to see what would happen.

[ez4u]

I think the fact that he bounces out in the first round prelims of world tournaments speaks more about the overall quality of Japanese Go than him being a great player.

If you are going to deride Japanese Go at least get your facts straight. When he isn't seeded into the main tournament he (as most Japanese top players) usually doesn't participate. -> He doesn't play preliminaries at all, even with less than stellar records internationally it is very hard to lose in the preliminaries if you don't play them.

Please don't get upset. Living in Tokyo, I do not think that this is an unreasonable comment (despite being factually incorrect). I personally do not know any Japanese pros who still feel that Japanese Go is competitive on the international stage. The old excuses of too short time limits, etc. have gone by the wayside. The issue is what, if anything, can/will be done about it. Currently it seems the answer is - very little. The Nihon Kiin at least seems to be unable to shake itself loose from the idea of doing everything it can to protect its current members. This means no steps to reduce the '9-dan bloat' or in general to make the level of play among pros more competitive. Certainly part of the problem is the relative lack of interest in Go in Japan versus its popularity in Korea and China. There is no big group of popular youngsters demanding better access to the professional circuit. My feeling about Iyama is that he may well be one of the great talents to ever play the game, but that he may never realize his true potential because too much of the time he does not face top-class competition.

[oren]

My feeling about Iyama is that he may well be one of the great talents to ever play the game, but that he may never realize his true potential because too much of the time he does not face top-class competition.

Right, it would be interesting to see him in Chinese City League, but with all the title matches and preliminaries in Japan, how would you be able to make that happen? I would like to see that.

Do you have any insight into the strategy the Nihon Kiin took in selecting the Nongshim reps this year?

[jts]

... but going toe-to-toe with the best players in the world and winning about half seems to be good for anyone.

Good, yes. And the step from 'Good' to 'Best ever' is...?

Well, hailthorn's question was about best ever in Japan, and the riposte was "that's meaningless, Japanese pros can't compete internationally." But clearly he does compete internationally, and does fine; if he would rather try to win the Kisei than spend all his time schlepping to the mainland to rack up wins in the preliminary rounds of blitz tournaments, I don't blame him.

It would be great if we could get more games between Japanese and strong Chinese and Korean players. It would also be great if we could get best-of-seven, two day matches between top Chinese and Korean stars. While we're at it, I wish Go Seigen had never gotten thwacked by a motorcycle. What else should be on the list?

[ez4u]

... but going toe-to-toe with the best players in the world and winning about half seems to be good for anyone.

Good, yes. And the step from 'Good' to 'Best ever' is...?

Well, hailthorn's question was about best ever in Japan, and the riposte was "that's meaningless, Japanese pros can't compete internationally." But clearly he does compete internationally, and does fine; if he would rather try to win the Kisei than spend all his time schlepping to the mainland to rack up wins in the preliminary rounds of blitz tournaments, I don't blame him.

It would be great if we could get more games between Japanese and strong Chinese and Korean players. It would also be great if we could get best-of-seven, two day matches between top Chinese and Korean stars. While we're at it, I wish Go Seigen had never gotten thwacked by a motorcycle. What else should be on the list?

Nice sidestep! I won't bother you anymore. My apologies for mistaking this thread for an interesting question. Bye!

[lemmata]

It may be too soon to broach this topic, but maybe not. Do you think Iyama Yuta will go down as one of the best Japanese Go players of all time? He was the fastest to reach professional 9 Dan in Japan and it's very possible that he could hold all seven of the big titles simultaneously this year. Nothing is a given, of course. But I fully expect him to win both the Kisei (Up 1 currently) and the Meijin titles this year.

So what do y'all think?

"Fastest to 9 dan" is a meaningless record because the Oteai has been eliminated. It used to be quite a chore to go up a rank in the old days. That said, if they were born in recent times, I have a gut feeling that Sakata Eio or Fujisawa Shuko would wipe the floor with young Iyama. Among young Japanese players, some say that Murakawa Daisuke of the Kansai Kiin might be the most talented. There might be a few talented unknown youngsters in the pipeline. Let's see what Iyama does for the next few years. It is very premature to have this discussion.

I do think that Iyama can be competitive in the international scene. It wouldn't be surprising to see him win one major international title although it is hard to imagine him winning more. After all, Cho U and Zhou Junxun have won the LG Cup. No one thinks that Iyama is inferior to those two players. Speaking of Cho U, don't write him off in the Kisei title yet. He comes from the Go Seigen-Rin Kaiho line. He will put up a fight against Iyama.

[oren]

Among young Japanese players, some say that Murakawa Daisuke of the Kansai Kiin might be the most talented. There might be a few talented unknown youngsters in the pipeline.

Iyama and Murakawa are very close in age, and I would say Iyama's results are far greater. I don't see how he could be more talented.

[p2501]

Among young Japanese players, some say that Murakawa Daisuke of the Kansai Kiin might be the most talented. There might be a few talented unknown youngsters in the pipeline.

Iyama and Murakawa are very close in age, and I would say Iyama's results are far greater. I don't see how he could be more talented.

Talent is not the only factor in the equation.

[oren]

Talent is not the only factor in the equation.

What are the other factors?

[lemmata]

Iyama and Murakawa are very close in age, and I would say Iyama's results are far greater. I don't see how he could be more talented.

The key word is "some", as in "some people think". Iyama is superior by most objective measures and most people would say that Iyama is more talented. Personally, I would agree with those people, because I do not have the strength to judge talent by anything other than results.

Talent is a mysterious thing though. Kim Jiseok is considered by many to be the most naturally talented active Korean pro other than Lee Sedol. When Kim was a child, Cho Hunhyun was so enamored with Kim's talent that he came very close to taking Kim as a live-in student. However, Kim's results in major tournaments lag far behind those of Park Junghwan or even Kang Dongyun. Of course, it is also said that Park Junghwan works on his game more than any other player. Kim has mainly excelled in blitz matches.

That doesn't mean that we can write off Kim. Some people realize their true potential later than others.