#205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols

The Intrepid · Post by **The Intrepid** » Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:40 am

@Uberdude

The Intrepid · Post by **The Intrepid** » Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:33 am

Strategy

Here are links to short videos where Dinershteyn explains, first, the wrong way of using a center stone and, then, a better approach to doing so.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 23ajhg0Bo#!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... FImtHxZrEw
Additional videos of his (on other subjects) can be found here: http://breakfast.go4go.net/?Free_Go_lectures_on_video

In the second link, Dinershteyn shows a game between Li Fan and Gan Siyang (b). The game begins as follows:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . 5 . . . , . 3 . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The critical position in the game is reached on move 21:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . , . X . . X , O . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In this position, White is leading on points but his stones are in a state of "every corner for itself." Black stones, on the other hand, are much more of a cohesive force. Thus, rather than play passively, which would enable White to connect his groups, Black invades at :b21:

to break up White's position on the left. This triggered a running fight. The marked Black stone in the center made the running battle appealing for Black.

My intent for this game, before topazg played his moves, was to follow Gan Siyang's strategy:
1). develop quickly;
2). choose outside influence over territory;
3). invade before the opponent has a chance to connect his corner groups;
4). trigger a fight where the stone in the center can come into play.

However, topazg decided to contest my claim to the center which calls for an adjustment to my strategy. I am so far unsure what specific adjustments I will make, but, most likely, I will seek to gain additional strength in the center before proceeding to precipitate a running battle.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:21 am

@The Intrepid,

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:43 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . 4 . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 2 . . 3 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

My "story" response:

For those more interested in the Go:

The Intrepid · Post by **The Intrepid** » Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:49 am

Is the "story" response for everyone or just for the observers?

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:57 am

The Intrepid wrote:Is the "story" response for everyone or just for the observers?

Everyone, I was just saving vertical space

The Intrepid · Post by **The Intrepid** » Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:10 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm6 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The Intrepid · Post by **The Intrepid** » Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:34 am

Comments regarding :b1:

The Intrepid · Post by **The Intrepid** » Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:13 pm

Comments regarding :w2:

My first move was in the center because, as explained previously, my intent was to play a center-stone-first-as-White fuseki. I placed the stone at 8-7 because that is the move manhammer uncorked against Uberdude. However, I think that neither playing a stone in the center nor placing it at 8-7, given topazg's first move, were efficient choices. Had topazg played at 4-4, Gan Siyang's move at 8-8 would work well because of the miai of "a" and "b":

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . a . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . b . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

A move at 8-7 would lack such a miai. A stone on the top side is easier to coordinate with the central stone than a stone on the right side, as shown below:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . @ . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . W . . 5 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 . . 3 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . Q . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

As can be seen, only one stone is needed to link :wc:

with

(via a 3-space extension + a daidaigeima extension) whereas linking :wc:

with

requires two stones.

Similarly, given that topazg played at 6-4, neither 8-8 nor 8-7 would lead to the same type of miai as above (the value of the right side is reduced because there is a Black stone there already). Therefore, had topazg's 3rd move been at the top-left corner, I would have to play at or near the bottom-right corner. It would not be easy to coordinate White's two stones.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc It's not easy to link with a stone at or in the vicinity of $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 4 , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

At this point, I probably should make a disclaimer that I have little experience with center-stone-first openings, so my analysis above may or may not be complete nonsense.

The Intrepid · Post by **The Intrepid** » Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:27 pm

Comments regarding :b3:

illluck · Post by **illluck** » Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:59 pm

Unusedname · Post by **Unusedname** » Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:01 pm

illluck wrote:
It feels to me like Intrepid is massively over-thinking this.

The Intrepid · Post by **The Intrepid** » Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:36 pm

Comments regarding :w4:

With my having a stone in the center, a quick opening development is ideal. This means striving to occupy the most open parts of the board first. After the first three moves, it should be visually apparent that the the top-left corner is the most open area on the board (a part of the board farthest from and least influenced by Black or White stones).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Top-left is the least occupied part of the board. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

As to why I played at 6-4, there are a few reasons. First, Gan Siyang, whose strategy I sought to employ in this game, likes to play 6-4. Second, 6-4 is also manhammer's move. Third, 6-4 (as well as 5-4) works reasonably well with the White stone in the center as discussed previously. Finally--although I did not think of this at the time--my playing 6-4 might have seem as a further provocation to topazg because he, too, played at 6-4. Thus, my move had a chance of inducing topazg to make another impulsive move. He did not take the (unintentional) bait, however.

The Intrepid · Post by **The Intrepid** » Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:02 pm

Comments regarding :b5:

topazg's

seems strange to me. The most open part of the board is clearly the bottom-right, not the bottom-left, corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Bottom-right is the least occupied part of the board. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Moreover,

and

are not easy to coordinate with each other. Synergy between them will be hard to achieve. By contrast, if topazg had played 5-4 in the bottom right, he would be establishing contours of a large moyo and would be enabling all of his stones to work together.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Coordination between and is easier to achieve than between and . $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . B . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . # , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The Intrepid · Post by **The Intrepid** » Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:22 pm

Comments regarding :w6:

Because topazg did not play :b5:

in the bottom-right corner (the most open part of the board), sente is very valuable right now. Getting sente is one of the primary objectives of :w6:

. The most common continuation is this, after which White can tenuki:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc White can tenuki with $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . O . . X . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 2 O . . . . . . . . $$ | . 3 1 , . . . . . , . . $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ -------------------------[/go]

Another reason why I used the 5-4 kakari is that it works well with my stone in the center. After the moves in the above diagram, the situation can continue as follows:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc White stones are working well together. $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . O . . X . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . $$ | . 1 O O . . . . . . . . $$ | . X X , . 2 . . . , . . $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ -------------------------[/go]

Another joseki continuation is the two-space jump, which again works well with the stone in the center.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . O . . X . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O O . . 1 . . . . . $$ | . X X , . . . . . , . . $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ -------------------------[/go]

Of course, topazg may choose to ignore my approach to his corner. However, I would then seek to attack his stone severely. Given that my stone in the center is closer to the corner than the Black central stone, I could expect to obtain a favorable result.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc The exchange of for is good for White. $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . W . . B . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . 2 . . , . . $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ -------------------------[/go]

Given all this, I like my position, so far. White is poised to take the lead in the game.

Life In 19x19

#205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols

Re: #205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols

Re: #205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols

Re: #205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols

Re: #205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols

Re: #205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols

Re: #205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols

Re: #205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols

Re: #205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols

Re: #205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols

Re: #205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols

Re: #205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols

Re: #205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols

Re: #205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols

Re: #205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols

Re: #205: The Intrepid vs. topazg: The Pistols